First Time Out On 3-Pin FT62X!

[telerat]

There are some interesting positions with both the straight 3-pin or the riser using the existing Xplore holes. I think one of then is 5cm back from recommended.

See CwmRaider's excellent posts here for mount dimensions: https://www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5428
If you reuse the rear Xplore holes for a 3-pin/cable the binding will be ahead of the pin line by 14mm. Add 30mm to that if you use the front two holes. If you use a riser, it seems the binding will be 35mm behind the pin line if you reuse the front holes and 65mm if you reuse the rear ones.
Notice that the old Chili/Cobra riser had a wider mounting holes pattern than Xplore and Switchback/Targa etc.

I will also chime in and say that I would mount Xplore and use Alfa Free on the FTX. Voile Objective could benefit from a sturdier boot/binding like Excursion and a cable binding, especially if you plan on using it on steeper terrain and firmer snow. I would also be tempted to go regular Switchback if I planned on using full length skins, while avoiding the X2. It is a bit risky mounting Switchback on Objectives BC, and a 3-pin cable directly to the ski may be safer depending on the mount reinforcements in the ski. Others that have personal experience should comment.

I don't agree that 3-pin has better control than Xplore regardless of boot and binding. As usual it depends mostly on the boot, but with equivalent boots it depends on the binding. Here are my claims:
* On Xplore with the standard flexor you will feel less in control than 3-pin, unless you are great at weighting your rear foot.
* On Xplore with hard flexor you will feel more in control than regular 3-pin. A 3-pin cable can surpass that again, but it depends on the boot and sole, and unfortunately many leather 75mm boots have soft molded rubber soles now while the Xplore sole is rather stiff. You need a high and sturdy boot for the difference to be noticeable.
* Plastic boots do not exist for Xplore so there is no equivalent and thus contest if those are used. With TTS bindings matching or surpassing 75mm cable bindings I actually think Xplore could handle plastic boots, but I do not think we will ever see that. I hope we will get a lighter version of the new TX Pro that is comparable to a T4/Excursion eventually, but I think it depends on sales of the new TX Pro.
* Personal preference is of course always valid, and anyone should use what they prefer and are comfortable with.

I will also mention Dostie's excellent work on mounting patterns, even though it's mostly for NTN/TTS: https://earnyourturns.com/34683/telemar ... -patterns/

[phoenix]

"Are you using 3-pin cables on your Objective with or without the riser? I currently have Xplore mounted with inserts. There are some interesting positions with both the straight 3-pin or the riser using the existing xplore holes. I think one of then is 5cm back from recommemded."

I have some old Riva II's (flexi cable, not a rod), mounted on Voile 10mm risers. The risers are a standard 4 hole pattern, giving a stronger mount than a 3 hole directly to the ski. And, at least in theory, if anything were to pull out it would be the binding from the riser, rather than ripping out from the ski itself.
I read Telerat's cautions about Switchbacks or X2's on Objectives, which is a good point... Those rigid "cables" will add to any risk of pull-out, more than flexible cables. Excursions and a soft cable absorb a lot of the stress that would otherwise be transerred to the mount with stiffer boots and bindings.

[telerat]

...Those rigid "cables" will add to any risk of pull-out, more than flexible cables. Excursions and a soft cable absorb a lot of the stress that would otherwise be transferred to the mount with stiffer boots and bindings.

To clarify, the forces are not dependent on what medium transfers them, but the absolute value and direction the forces are working. A soft spring (or stiff Xplore sole for that matter) with pivot points forward will generate much less pullout forces than Switchback X2 (or AXL and similar) with stiffer springs and pivot point further back. It is also easier to generate larger forces with a tall boot as you have a longer arm, and also little ankle movement so all movement has to come from the boot/binding interface. Knee to ski or a forward fall will test this to the maximum. It is easy to get a feel for this though, as the resistance to bending/heel lift will be the forces generated, and you can feel the difference between different bindings. If the springs bottom out, the forces will increase tremendously.

The longer behind the mounting screws for the binding is, the less pullout forces will be, but the ski/screws has to have good enough hold which can be a problem with telemark bindings on lightweight skis. Additional screws can help take some of the forces and reduce the risk, but the rear screws or those close to the spring/cable attachment point will take the greatest forces. Alpine/touring bindings have a large distance between front and rear bindings, which is often proportional to height and weight, so they have less problems with pullout.

[JohnSKepler]

It's important to remember, when engaging me, that I don't know what the hell I'm doing on a pair of skis. Oh, and I'm about half-cripple. I went Tele two years ago because injuries have made locking the heel just, straight up, dangerous. It was then, skiing with that free heel, that my mind expanded, my soul transcended, and I evolved to a higher level being. So while I'm a far better sentient entity than those alpine scum, I still suck.*

I am working hard to learn tele but, apparently, tele skiing is hard. However, I'm very good with tools and can build and modify just about anything. My kids are all grown and while I'm not wealthy by any stretch, I can buy bindings on sale from Varuste and 25 year old shell boots without asking my wife first. That makes it fun and easy to do experiments and tests and see what works better even though what works better is already widely known by those with experience. It's fun verifying impressions and, occasionally, disproving them (at least to myself.) There are some things, that others have already done, that you can still learn a lot by doing, though, my brothers taught me that sometimes learning solely by observation can keep you out of trouble.

So, yesterday evening I pulled the Xplore bindings off the Objective and put inserts in for the Voile riser. I put the Xplores back onto the FT62 and will mount up the 3-Pin on the Objective this afternoon. Epoxy ought to be cured by then.

We're supposed to have steady snow of varying intensity until Tuesday and I fully plan on getting out tomorrow, Sunday, and Monday. Excited to see how the Objective/GarmontExcursion combo does!

*It's at this point my wife pulls me aside and says the people I'm talking to might not know when I'm kidding. But I'm not joking about being a poor skier.

[Inspiredcapers]

Your tinkering is pretty cool to read John, keep up the interesting work.

I can’t tele worth a damn either but keep trying.

I have serious snow envy!!!

[phoenix]

If I'm following correctly, you'll be skiing the Objectives with Excursions and 3pin cables. If so, you'll finally have assembled a viable tele set up. If you really want to get comfortable and competent (more or less) with the technique, I suggest you spend a lot of time on that set up, making as many turns as possible. And, importantly, you should seek some mentoring; skiing with an experienced buddy, maybe taking a lesson or two. At least, if you haven't yet, spend time with one of the go-to instructional books; Paul Parker's Free Heel Skiing, or the memorable Allen and Mike's...ummm, Telemark for Dummies (uncertainty due only to memory lapse)?

Watch out for too many examples of low angle, sunny day, perfect snow videos displaying the pesky "tip toeing" (on the rear foot) technique, also referred to as "poodle-ing". Do watch the ones of good skiers making solid turns, note how that rear foot isn't just being trailed somewhere behind the lead foot, but functionally weighted. Doesn't have to be far back, you'll see some very good skiers doing this with their feet pretty close together fore and aft. Getting the feel of really using that rear foot is when you start feeling you're getting it.

[JohnSKepler]

If I'm following correctly, you'll be skiing the Objectives with Excursions and 3pin cables. If so, you'll finally have assembled a viable tele set up. If you really want to get comfortable and competent (more or less) with the technique, I suggest you spend a lot of time on that set up, making as many turns as possible. And, importantly, you should seek some mentoring; skiing with an experienced buddy, maybe taking a lesson or two. At least, if you haven't yet, spend time with one of the go-to instructional books; Paul Parker's Free Heel Skiing, or the memorable Allen and Mike's...ummm, Telemark for Dummies (uncertainty due only to memory lapse)?

Watch out for too many examples of low angle, sunny day, perfect snow videos displaying the pesky "tip toeing" (on the rear foot) technique, also referred to as "pooling". Do watch the ones of good skiers making solid turns, note how that rear foot isn't just being trailed somewhere behind the lead foot, but functionally weighted. Doesn't have to be far back, you'll see some very good skiers doing this with their feet pretty close together fore and aft. Getting the feel of really using that rear foot is when you start feeling you're getting it.

Nailed it, @phoenix . Took the Objectives with the 3-pin and a very nice set of Garmont Veloce I found locally for $60 into a fresh 20 inches in the Wasatch today. I thought they were the Excursion but they're actually the heavier boot. At any rate, they were fantastic. I still can't believe how well the 3-pin tours. It makes no sense to me. I'm not sure it is as good as Xplore in more shallow conditions but in deep snow it just goes. But for the first time I felt like I was in control of what I was trying to do. Never even put on the cables.

After having skied these a little now I'm starting to "get it." With NTN I just never felt like I could feet what was happening, especially with that back foot. I was pretty sure it was back there but there was just no feedback. But with my entire forefoot plastered to the ski, I could feel the snow. Never happened before. The Xplore isn't as bad as NTN in that regard but nowhere near as good as 3-pin. However, I ski much lighter skis in better conditions with the Xplore.

Not sure about the liner. It's not heat-moldable and seemed to pack out quite a bit today. By the time I got back to the car after a few hours I had more slop in there that I'd like.

I also managed to get my 4WD Expedition stuck in the Sink Hollow parking lot! The snow plow finally showed up and cleared the way and a couple of back country skiers pulled me out. Going to be looking at a 2" lift and some larger rubber for the Expo.

[fisheater]

John, new Intuition liners will cost way more than those boots. You may have your wife for permission;) ! If you like those boots you will love them with new Intuition liners. I’ve bought two pairs, the customer service is great. Both times I consulted the website first, then made a phone call.
Glad to hear things are clicking.

[tkarhu]

This site in Canada seems to sell inexpensive Intuition liners. Don't know what delivery costs are in North America, though. In Europe, we have double prices.

https://fluidmotionsports.com

[phoenix]

Sounds good John! Except for the getting stuck part. Those Veloce's are quite similar to Excursions, just a bit more boot as I recall. They have that same huge volume fit as the Excursions too. Also the same flex; they make it easy to get the whole forefoot on the ski, as you described. Huge breakthrough for your skiing.

Intuition makes a couple of high volume liners, if you end up liking those boots enough to invest a little more (well, a lot more) for the fit.