How Do I Turn?

[fisheater]

@mca80 a back foot hockey stop is a hockey stop in which you pressure the back foot to stop. It's not something done in powder.

Hm. I figured you pressured both feet in such a stop, no? Will have to pay attention next time I do it.
[/quote@mca80

That is what makes it a drill. Something you do to teach yourself a feel or to give yourself some muscle memo@mca80
Most drills in a ski school class aren’t how you would normally ski. However exaggerated actions teach us about the correct movements

[Stephen]

Light bulb moment


When I taught myself telemark in the early 70s on wooden 220s, it was almost 100% front ski for the entire turn.
I just happen to have a pair of 220 Asnes woodies and they are 2x4s!
They are stiff.
The tips are stiff, the tails are stiff, they are just planks.
In comparison, the Gammes are noodles.

So the way I got the 220 woodies to turn was to just press the heck out of that front ski and make sure the tip of the rear ski stayed ahead of my front ankle (so as not to head downhill on its own).
I’m not saying this was the “right” way.
I was in an information vacuum back then — no internet, no exposure to more experienced skiers, just make it up as I went.
I’ve been feeling “less than” with this poor technique I learned, but maybe it was what was needed with what I had?

That technique really messed me up for a while, when, in the last few years, picking this up again with modern equipment, and especially, single camber alpine skis with NTN and TX Pros.

For me anyway, just one more piece in the 1,000 piece, all white, telemark puzzle.

[Stephen]

From Pictures, Pictures, Pictures…
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=527&start=1390#p55213

Why are the skis at different angles?
Why is there more “spray” from the inside ski?
Inside boot look not very pressed to the ski?
What is the significance of the skis being at different edge angles?
Just curious…
.

[mca80]

@fisheater great, makes more sense now. The past week on this forum has been great for obtaining all sorts of drills for a newbie like me. Appreciate it, everyone. Back when I was a gymnast, as well as when I was training an off track thoroughbred to be a trail horse, I enjoyed practice and drills not just for their end results but in themselves.

[lowangle al]

From Pictures, Pictures, Pictures…
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=527&start=1390#p55213

Why are the skis at different angles?
Why is there more “spray” from the inside ski?
Inside boot look not very pressed to the ski?
What is the significance of the skis being at different edge angles?
Just curious…
.
09C554B4-FBD1-4DD7-9714-151E79AFDCE0.jpeg

Slightly different pressure and angle, both skis will end up where they need to be for the transition. Keeping your skis more parallel takes conscious effort. If it's your goal you can do it, but if you're just out there skiing, they'll stay parallel enough. It won't make you or break you.

[lowangle al]

A Swedish Telemark Legend from the 90s taught me to ski with most of the weight on the rear ski (In certain conditions) using the front ski as a hover craft pushing on the heel of the front ski to raise the tip.

Point 4) is actually part of why the double camber powder trick works, I guess. When you have less snow on top of a leading ski, it leads you to a more helpful place that pointing its tip towards the bottom of a snowpack.

I can’t speak authoritatively on this, but I think there are a few key points here:

In certain conditions

The trick is, not ALL conditions, and figuring out where this is helpful.
I think it might be in variable snow or conditions.
I think doing this can have a few benefits:
- It helps to keep the skier from getting pitched forward if there is any deceleration. The skier has not committed a critical amount of weight to the front ski and so there is reserve support available if one is thrown forward.
- Also, any steering done by the front ski is more like a trim tab, like a small adjustment to the main steering of the back ski.
- And, it allows the skier to test the snow with a lighter touch, so he knows if the snow gets slower or faster, deeper or thinner, firmer or softer.

If you ski with a heavily weighted rear ski you'll just about never go over the handlebars. It will enable you to have a lot of great saves by being able to save yourself on that lead ski by giving you more reaction time. (if your weight is allready on the lead ski, you have less options) It will keep your tip from diving. It lets you float higher and go faster when you need some speed to get down. It does this making a partly packed channel for your weighted ski to glide on.

It's a necessary tool for sure and it will rarely hurt you. It works in most all snow conditions but not all terrain. One of the places that it will hurt you is steep terrain. When you need to control your speed on packed very steep terrain you need to start that turn by carving as early you can on that lead ski, combined with as much edge angle as you can get as far forward on the ski as possible. That's if you can carve across, best with a short turn radius ski. You guys on dbl camber skis will be doing jump turns here, hoping that when you land your boot has enough lateral stiffness to hold that edge. I'm going on a tangent. The point is, on steep terrain you need to concentrate on weighting that lead. After all, it's that lead ski that is going to determine your destiny. You need a lot of edge on steep stuff and the lead ski is more capable here. This also appies to certain conditions and going fast, relative to your gear.

[fisheater]

@Stephen The way I see the photo is that he has already planted his left pole (I believe in using the French “baton”, because the pole plant is a timing aspect) Since he planted the pole he is in the unweighting stage. The right foot is moving forward, neither ski has rolled onto the left side edge. It’s kind of a transitional phase of the turn, caught in a snapshot it looks lost.
There was more spray from the right ski, because that was the former inside (uphill) ski. I think you tend to finish a typical Telemark turn with more weight on the inside (uphill) ski.

[lowangle al]

DOUBLE CAMBER SKIS ARE THE MAJOR OBSTACLE IN MOVING FROM XC TO XCD. It can be done with a much larger commitment in time, energy, and risk of injury.

^^ This ^^

Pure gold.

I agree @lowangle al I also didn’t learn to Telemark on double camber skis or leather boots.

So Fish, you didn't learn on leather boots? That's all they had when I started in 85'. Coming from a xc backround I went with double camber skis. I had a couple pairs of single camber skis, but didn't have the experience to feel their benefits so I didn't stick with them. Same for the cable binding.

It took about 15 years to be able to make turns without needing enough momentum to flex the skis into an arc. Then I switched to a single camber ski with a cable, quit working (in the winter) and put it all together. It still took another 15 or more years to get over that overweighting of the rear ski and finally get perfectly centered.

It doesn't have to take 30 years to learn. With the right gear, good instruction and a season pass you could figure it out in a season. The good thing is, like sex, you don't have to be an expert to enjoy it. At least that's what I've heard.

[GrimSurfer]

This thread contains excellent information…. However, that information causes a rethink of some of the things discussed in the physics discussion.

Tip Pressure. IDK if this is an accurate term. After all, isn’t it easier to use weight to apply pressure to the ski tip on a double cambered ski?

Weight Transfer. A lot of discussion has been focused on keeping a certain amount of weight on the back ski for stability. Makes perfect sense. When we look at a Telemark stance, it doesn’t appear to be about keeping the weight forward. The crouch (if I may call it that) seems to be keeping the centre of gravity low and keeping the weight fairly centred over the skis. On a low cambered ski, this would flatten the ski. This, side cut etc., would help make the ski perform more like a DH ski (most of which have low/no camber).

Not looking to turn this into a physics discussion. Just hoping to resolve contradictions in what people said there, and here.

[Montana St Alum]

^^ This ^^

Pure gold.

I agree @lowangle al I also didn’t learn to Telemark on double camber skis or leather boots.

So Fish, you didn't learn on leather boots? That's all they had when I started in 85'. Coming from a xc backround I went with double camber skis. I had a couple pairs of single camber skis, but didn't have the experience to feel their benefits so I didn't stick with them. Same for the cable binding.

It took about 15 years to be able to make turns without needing enough momentum to flex the skis into an arc. Then I switched to a single camber ski with a cable, quit working (in the winter) and put it all together. It still took another 15 or more years to get over that overweighting of the rear ski and finally get perfectly centered.

It doesn't have to take 30 years to learn. With the right gear, good instruction and a season pass you could figure it out in a season. The good thing is, like sex, you don't have to be an expert to enjoy it. At least that's what I've heard.

I first went in 1971. IDK what I was on, but they felt like low top converses and they could have been on quadruple camber skis for all I know. We shuttled to a pass somewhere in Colorado and by the time I got to the bottom, I'd sat down so much I finally put my legs through the arm holes on my down vest to cover my butt, it was so cold!