There is too much damn rocker out there! Wonkish discussion.

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lilcliffy
Posts: 4124
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm
Location: Stanley, New Brunswick, Canada
Ski style: backcountry Nordic ski touring
Favorite Skis: Asnes Ingstad, Combat Nato, Amundsen, Rabb 68; Altai Kom
Favorite boots: Alpina Alaska BC; Lundhags Expedition; Alfa Skaget XP; Scarpa T4
Occupation: Forestry Professional
Instructor at Maritime College of Forest Technology
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Re: There is too much damn rocker out there! Wonkish discussion.

Post by lilcliffy » Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:23 pm

So- rockered tips on XC skis...

In many cases- how much of this current trend towards rockered XC skis is about deliberate utilitarian design, and how much of it is just a way to marketing trend- designed to re-market skis.

The Nordic rocker on the Ingstad and the E109 is the result of intentional design- to improve the downhill performance of distance-oriented BC-XC touring skis. The trade-off is a short XC glide zone on consolidated snow. The E109's problem is that the shovel is too damn soft and unstable (STDS= shovel too damn soft!)- making this otherwise wonderful hill-country XC ski miserably unstable in deep soft snow.

At first look, the major rocker on the Ousland ski seems an act of madness- until you consider skiing over the Polar icecap...The crust don't "break" up there and it can be piled metres high! :shock:

The rocker combined with an unstable soft shovel on the E99 Xtralite is just plain stupid. The ski is slow on consolidated snow and unstable in deep soft snow.

OH- but the Nordic rocker makes the E99 so much easier to turn! Really? It makes the effective edge shorter- sure. Perhaps it "improves" turn initiation- but it certainly doesn't make cambered and stiff-underfoot E99 a downhill ski.

So let's talk about the marketing BS.

Early-tip rise.
Skis with rockered tips offer early-tip rise-TRUE.
Narrow XC skis with rockered tips can take advantage of early-tip rise- bullshit.

Narrow BC-XC do not float high-enough in the snow column to rise up and plane when downhill skiing in deep soft snow. (I have let my 205cm Ingstad BC completely go and reached LUDICROUS SPEED a couple of times- yes they will rise up and surf at LUDICROUS SPEED.)

The rockered tip on the E109/Ingstad definitely improves turn initiation downhill. And with the tip already "bent" into a rockered geometry- a ski like this simply does not need an ultra-soft shovel- in fact, it needs the opposite.

Oh- but tip rocker improves BC-XC trail-breaking because the tip wants to ride on top of the snow! Bullshit. The tip does want to rise alright- it is rockered. But this does not improve trail-breaking- it undermines it- leaving the ski breaking trail with the shovel- instead of the tip- and leaving- at best- the skier in this perpetual hell of skiing up a virtual hill- at worst- if the tail is also soft and round- it delivers the dreaded BC-XC pool-cover syndrome.

None of these BC-XC/fjellskis are wide enough to float at the top of the snow column when XC skiing in deep soft snow and no one can XC ski fast enough for one of these narrow skis to rise up and plane in deep soft snow.

The best trail-breaking BC-XC ski I own is the Asnes Combat Nato (the USGI Asnes Combat a close second) and this ski has ZERO tip rocker.

The Gamme 54 with its low profile slight tip rocker, stiff supportive shovel, and traditional broad, raised tip offers about the best balance I can think of in a distance-oriented BC ski. It does offer some noticeably improved turn initiation, but the shovel and tip are rock-solid stable- supportive in deep snow; long glide zone on consolidated snow; and crust-smashing, trail-breaking raised tip.

The E99 and E109 are both terrible messes of the old-school-pre-tip-rocker soft tip of a BC-XCD ski; with an addiction to "more-is-better" tip rocker.

The E109 needs a stable shovel.
The E99 needs a stable shovel, MUCH less tip rocker, and a traditional broad-raised tip.

The photos of the Nansen are interesting...What little "Nordic rocker" there is, is very low profile... Do you think that is appropriately described as "Nordic rocker" or is it more the result of the shape of the tip and its transition into the shovel...What does it look like without the camber compressed?
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.

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lilcliffy
Posts: 4124
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm
Location: Stanley, New Brunswick, Canada
Ski style: backcountry Nordic ski touring
Favorite Skis: Asnes Ingstad, Combat Nato, Amundsen, Rabb 68; Altai Kom
Favorite boots: Alpina Alaska BC; Lundhags Expedition; Alfa Skaget XP; Scarpa T4
Occupation: Forestry Professional
Instructor at Maritime College of Forest Technology
Husband, father, farmer and logger

Re: There is too much damn rocker out there! Wonkish discussion.

Post by lilcliffy » Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:28 pm

Roelant-
The open tips on those Atomic Redstars are very intersting
It is as if the shovel of the ski is released from the snow when one completely kicks down...
I am assuming that they don't open up until the camber is completely compressed?
Very interesting.
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.



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fgd135
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Re: There is too much damn rocker out there! Wonkish discussion.

Post by fgd135 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:55 pm

fisheater wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:12 pm

I also ordered some of Ben’s recommended Rex Universal Tar
I wonder if it works as well as this pine tar based wax?
JRW.jpg
"To me, gracefulness on skis should be the end-all of the sport" --Stein Eriksen



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bgregoire
Posts: 1511
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:31 am
Ski style: Nordic backcountry touring with lots of turns
Favorite Skis: Fisher E99 & Boundless (98), Åsnes Ingstad, K2 Wayback 88
Favorite boots: Crispi Sydpolen, Alico Teletour & Alfa Polar

Re: There is too much damn rocker out there! Wonkish discussion.

Post by bgregoire » Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:59 pm

fgd135 wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:55 pm
fisheater wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:12 pm

I also ordered some of Ben’s recommended Rex Universal Tar
I wonder if it works as well as this pine tar based wax?
JRW.jpg
I have used the entire line of START tar pine waxes. In my climate and BC use, I fin the univeral is by far the best oif them all and what probably most resembles Jackrabbit's Dry snow wax
141.jpg
https://rex.fi/en/gripwax/basic_grip_waxes

Happy to see some here believe the Nordic Rocker was an intentional design which I presume could be implemented independently of a reduced weight ski.
I live for the Telemark arc....The feeeeeeel.....I ski miles to get to a place where there is guaranteed snow to do the deal....TM



User avatar
lilcliffy
Posts: 4124
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm
Location: Stanley, New Brunswick, Canada
Ski style: backcountry Nordic ski touring
Favorite Skis: Asnes Ingstad, Combat Nato, Amundsen, Rabb 68; Altai Kom
Favorite boots: Alpina Alaska BC; Lundhags Expedition; Alfa Skaget XP; Scarpa T4
Occupation: Forestry Professional
Instructor at Maritime College of Forest Technology
Husband, father, farmer and logger

Re: There is too much damn rocker out there! Wonkish discussion.

Post by lilcliffy » Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:12 pm

BTW- sorry that I contributed to the kick wax digression-
We should start a separate thread if we are going to explore grip-kick wax...
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.



User avatar
bgregoire
Posts: 1511
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:31 am
Ski style: Nordic backcountry touring with lots of turns
Favorite Skis: Fisher E99 & Boundless (98), Åsnes Ingstad, K2 Wayback 88
Favorite boots: Crispi Sydpolen, Alico Teletour & Alfa Polar

Re: There is too much damn rocker out there! Wonkish discussion.

Post by bgregoire » Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:30 pm

lilcliffy wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:12 pm
BTW- sorry that I contributed to the kick wax digression-
We should start a separate thread if we are going to explore grip-kick wax...
I've got nothing more to say bout that! ;)
I live for the Telemark arc....The feeeeeeel.....I ski miles to get to a place where there is guaranteed snow to do the deal....TM



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greatgt
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Re: There is too much damn rocker out there! Wonkish discussion.

Post by greatgt » Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:49 am

On the down they work fine....but heading up makes for much lower angle of approach....Also when trying to cruise fast as the heel of the ski comes up when pushing kick and glide you can feel a flash of resistance....Since almost of my time is in the forest....cruising is very important....Without rocker the old 109's turn wicked well as do the 99's...TM



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Woodserson
Posts: 2971
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Location: New Hampshire
Ski style: Bumps, trees, steeps and long woodsy XC tours
Occupation: Confused Turn Farmer

Re: There is too much damn rocker out there! Wonkish discussion.

Post by Woodserson » Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:23 pm

lilcliffy wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:23 pm
In many cases- how much of this current trend towards rockered XC skis is about deliberate utilitarian design, and how much of it is just a way to marketing trend- designed to re-market skis.

So let's talk about the marketing BS.

Early-tip rise.
Skis with rockered tips offer early-tip rise-TRUE.
Narrow XC skis with rockered tips can take advantage of early-tip rise- bullshit.

Narrow BC-XC do not float high-enough in the snow column to rise up and plane when downhill skiing in deep soft snow. (I have let my 205cm Ingstad BC completely go and reached LUDICROUS SPEED a couple of times- yes they will rise up and surf at LUDICROUS SPEED.)

The rockered tip on the E109/Ingstad definitely improves turn initiation downhill. And with the tip already "bent" into a rockered geometry- a ski like this simply does not need an ultra-soft shovel- in fact, it needs the opposite.

Oh- but tip rocker improves BC-XC trail-breaking because the tip wants to ride on top of the snow! Bullshit. The tip does want to rise alright- it is rockered. But this does not improve trail-breaking- it undermines it- leaving the ski breaking trail with the shovel- instead of the tip- and leaving- at best- the skier in this perpetual hell of skiing up a virtual hill- at worst- if the tail is also soft and round- it delivers the dreaded BC-XC pool-cover syndrome.

The best trail-breaking BC-XC ski I own is the Asnes Combat Nato and this ski has ZERO tip rocker.

The E99 and E109 are both terrible messes of the old-school-pre-tip-rocker soft tip of a BC-XCD ski; with an addiction to "more-is-better" tip rocker.

The E109 needs a stable shovel.
The E99 needs a stable shovel, MUCH less tip rocker, and a traditional broad-raised tip.
I requoted all this for truth!

LC, King of New Brunswick wrote: The photos of the Nansen are interesting...What little "Nordic rocker" there is, is very low profile... Do you think that is appropriately described as "Nordic rocker" or is it more the result of the shape of the tip and its transition into the shovel...What does it look like without the camber compressed?
It look very traditional. But my traditional skis don't have the tiny bit of splay that Nansens exhibit. Asnes does not advertise "rocker" on the Nansen's, but REI does. I would be hardpressed to say the ski has "rocker." I'd say it has tip splay to a minute degree. I think it's perfect. This is how a BC ski should be. The Nansen has low initial camber, but that's fine, that's part of the ski design. I can't wait to give it a good K&G!



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