Pre Season Conditioning

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Re: Pre Season Conditioning

Post by Montana St Alum » Thu Dec 29, 2022 1:41 pm

GrimSurfer wrote:
Thu Dec 29, 2022 1:03 pm
I can easily zip past my age heart rate of 160.
I wouldn't put much stock in the predictive HR. I had a stress echo cardiogram around age 60 and topped out at 202.

I expected the techs to be impressed, but the look they gave me was, "yeah, yeah, hurry up, we want to go home"!

I'm not sure this will show up:
https://www.strava.com/activities/7410962335#

Right around the time I turned 70, this was a 20.22 mile round trip ride with a 3500 foot climb to around 10k. Best 20 minute HR was 181 and best 60 minute was 177. I haven't had a stress echo for about 5 years, but these values correlate to those tests.
Last edited by Montana St Alum on Thu Dec 29, 2022 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pre Season Conditioning

Post by GrimSurfer » Thu Dec 29, 2022 2:11 pm

Sure. But that was likely induced chemically. So your heart was beating quickly without having to deal with a volume demand at the same time.

Somebody our age zipping up to 200 without a massive external stimulus (drugs, extreme exercise) would be diagnosed with tachycardia. The same aged person topping out at +/- 10% of a predictive age heart rate falls within normal human tolerances. Remember, these limits are based on hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of tests making them statistically valid to the decimal point.

Still, it’s a rough guide. Nothing more.

The gold standard is a fully instrumented stress or VO2 Max test on a treadmill*. It’s an inexpensive test and can be subsequently used to inform an exercise profile. The results it provides are only as good as one’s level of effort though. Quit before you truly reach exhaustion, and that’s where your max HR will be pegged.

Drive yourself to a loss of consciousness, and max heart rate will be set at the point just below where any abnormalities we’re noted. (This almost never happens because the human nervous system is actually pretty good at getting people to cool their jets before passing out.)

For those who have never had one, the test is conducted in parallel with an ECG. So the results show all kinds of things, like oxygen uptake, cardiac rhythm, beats per minute, response to load, heart rate recovery, etc.

I can’t speak to your Strava results (can’t see them as the link doesn’t work without a log-in). I’d say, however, that your tolerance for a high pulse is likely linked more to determination than a safe sustainable limit. You probably have what the Finns would call “sisu” and have driven it hard your whole life, so we’re able to tolerate the massive demand without having a stroke or heart attack.

People can, and do, overdrive themselves. This can be done occasionally by accident but isn’t wise to put into a regular exercise programme… unless you’ve been cleared to do so by a medical specialist. Otherwise, it’s more like Russian roulette and less like surfing with your toes on the nose.

This is why old timers hockey sometimes ends in a funeral.


* Lots of literature showing that treadmill is superior to doing a stress test on an exercise bike, as non-cyclists tend to stop the test early due to muscle fatigue (versus reaching their tolerable cardio limit).
Last edited by GrimSurfer on Thu Dec 29, 2022 2:32 pm, edited 5 times in total.
We dreamed of riding waves of air, water, snow, and energy for centuries. When the conditions were right, the things we needed to achieve this came into being. Every idea man has ever had up to that point about time and space were changed. And it keeps on changing whenever we dream. Bio mechanical jazz, man.



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Re: Pre Season Conditioning

Post by Montana St Alum » Thu Dec 29, 2022 2:15 pm

GrimSurfer wrote:
Thu Dec 29, 2022 2:11 pm
Sure. But that was likely induced chemically.
That wasn't induced chemically. Stress echo cardiograms aren't done with chemicals. Nothing is injected inhaled or swallowed. No dyes, nothing. They aren't done on a bike. You get on a treadmill and they slowly increase the incline while monitoring an EKG. Intermittently, they use a sonogram to get a visual representation of your valve operation. No electrical timing or duration anomalies were detected. No valve operation abnormalities were noted. No indications of arrhythmias, or any other conditions were noted.

Technically any heart rate over 100 BPM is tachycardia, but that is meaningless as we all exceed that.

I get stress echoes occasionally, as my exercise HRs are well above average, so I just pay out of pocket for these and calcium scores.

Back in the early 1980's I was involved in aviation physiology related to the F-14 in a flat spin, as I flew the F-14 at the time. The G-loading was 6+, eyeballs forward and they wanted some data on the physiology of the experience. They had a mock-up of an F-14 cockpit on a centrifuge and spun me up to about 4-5 G's while hooked up to an EKG. I hit 235 on that. I think I just must have 2 chipmunk hearts mounted in series.



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Re: Pre Season Conditioning

Post by GrimSurfer » Thu Dec 29, 2022 3:18 pm

Not quite. There are many forms of tachycardia. The most common form is high resting rate (100 or higher for adults).

Other forms include more than one PVC between regular beats (i.e. beat —> irregular or incomplete beat —-> irregular or incomplete beat —> beat). This sometimes registers as a high rate. Other times it does not. But it is still classed as an irregular function under the general rubric of tachycardia. This is not to be confused with the occasional PVC, which most of the population experiences on occasion.

Lots of doctors and even the odd physio in the family… and one of my hobbies is to read exercise science papers published by the National Institutes of Health (it’s true… I’m actually that boring).

ECG/EKG results under specific test conditions don’t necessarily map to an exercise programme. So if you’re tellin’ me that you’re 70 and regularly hitting 200 bpm, the please include me in your will. I’m certain the payout will occur well before I time-out. In fact, I might even hit the ski shops tomorrow on speculation that something will happen before my credit card bill arrives. J/K

Getting back to the point…

This is about pre -season and in-season exercise. It can be informed by a VO2 Max test. It can be guided by a good heart rate monitor. It can be framed in the context of modern exercise medicine.

Conversely, one can ignore everything and live their life without the benefit of data, knowledge, or good judgment. Perceived rate of exertion is at one end of this spectrum. Misadventurism is at the other.

It’s a free world… we all get to pick our path in it. Younger people may dismiss this as a bunch of nonsense… but serious athletes take it quite seriously, and benefit from it greatly.

When in doubt, I revert back to my diving days… plan your dive and dive your plan. Nobody has ever got bent following this truism.
We dreamed of riding waves of air, water, snow, and energy for centuries. When the conditions were right, the things we needed to achieve this came into being. Every idea man has ever had up to that point about time and space were changed. And it keeps on changing whenever we dream. Bio mechanical jazz, man.



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Re: Pre Season Conditioning

Post by Montana St Alum » Thu Dec 29, 2022 3:35 pm

I think you are misinterpreting what I'm saying.

I'm saying don't rely on predictive HR.
You have to know YOUR max HR to formulate a training plan.
The best - and safest - way to do that is to get a medically supervised stress echocardiogram.
It will define your max and also screen for abnormalities while doing so.

Predictive HR's are not accurate. I'm an example.

I'm no longer hitting 200. My max is now about 188, but you need to know YOUR max, not predicted max, to formulate a training plan.

Getting other data is also fine. I'm not arguing against it, but you seem to be taking this personally.
Last edited by Montana St Alum on Thu Dec 29, 2022 4:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.



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Re: Pre Season Conditioning

Post by mca80 » Thu Dec 29, 2022 3:50 pm

So what kind of tests do I ask my doctor to perform when I go for a physical in March? I am a little worried about my heart due to higher BP (130/80...though I am naturally tense and anxious and BP has been steady about this level since my mid 20s) and slightly elevated cholesterol. That said, now that heating season is here I eat oats every morning for breakfast, lentils or peas or beans and some form of whole grains for lunch, and venison for dinner usually with some sort of starch or grain and a little dairy and some vegetables. And 3 to 10 drinks per day depending on my mood. But I chop lots of firewood (sole heating and cooking source), walk a lot doing various chores (moving wood, dumping grey water from dishes and waste from composting toilet), ski 12hrs a week, snowblow the driveway, sauna 2 to 3 times a week. Part of my recent bad tests may be because I spent summer building a cabin and barely hiked or biked, something in years past I did 15hrs per week. That or it's just getting into my 40s and too much alcohol.

As a sidenote, I have always just thrown myself into intense exercise without properly preparing. I biked a bit in my late 20s but started an 820 mile bike camping trip by doing 35 miles the first day and 90 the second, fully loaded with camping gear and food and such. Was a bit much--maybe not for 28 or 29 year old but that might kill me these days without adequate training beforehand.
Last edited by mca80 on Thu Dec 29, 2022 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: Pre Season Conditioning

Post by Montana St Alum » Thu Dec 29, 2022 3:53 pm

mca80 wrote:
Thu Dec 29, 2022 3:50 pm
So what kind of tests do I ask my doctor to perform when I go for a physical in March? I am a little worried about my heart due to higher BP (130/80...though I am naturally tense and anxious and BP has been steady about this level since my mid 20s) and slightly elevated cholesterol. That said, now that heating season is here I eat oats every morning for breakfast, lentils or peas or beans and some form of whole grains for lunch, and venison for dinner usually with some sort of starch or grain and a little dairy. And 3 to 10 drinks per day depending on my mood. But I chop lots of firewood (sole heating and cooking source), walk a lot doing various chores (moving wood, dumping grey water from dishes and waste from composting toilet), ski 12hrs a week, snowblow the driveway, sauna 2 to 3 times a week. Part of my recent bad tests may be because I spent summer building a cabin and barely hiked or biked, something in years past I did 15hrs per week. That or it's just getting into my 40s and too much alcohol.
I'd say the best thing to do if you have high cholesterol (especially if you're over 50) is to get a Calcium Score. If you are hitting the alcohol hard, try to titrate back until you're ready to kill someone, then up the dosage! You may want to have a blood test for liver enzymes because of the alcohol usage and don't even think about ever taking Tylenol!
Ask your doctor about taking N-Acetylcysteine. I've cleared usage with my doctor, as NAC is VERY protective of liver function (it's given in emergencies with Tylenol overdoses to prevent liver damage), but again, ask your doctor!
Last edited by Montana St Alum on Thu Dec 29, 2022 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: Pre Season Conditioning

Post by mca80 » Thu Dec 29, 2022 3:57 pm

What does that tell me? Also, I am 42.



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Re: Pre Season Conditioning

Post by Montana St Alum » Thu Dec 29, 2022 4:02 pm

mca80 wrote:
Thu Dec 29, 2022 3:57 pm
What does that tell me? Also, I am 42.
If you have high cholesterol, it can cause deposits inside blood vessels. These can result in damage. Your body will deposit calcium along damaged portions of blood vessels. Using a CT scan, the radiologist can see the calcium that has been deposited. There is a very strong correlation between the deposit of calcium and associated damage, because it can pick up occlusions, so it can be a good tool for your doctor.

https://www.insideradiology.com.au/coro ... lerosis%29.

It's really easy to schedule a calcium score (I'm in Utah, near Salt Lake which has great facilities). I just called up the hospital and asked to schedule it. It was scheduled 3 or 4 days later, and I just paid $150 cash without involving insurance. Now, I see it's covered by Medicare.


I do a lot of weird things like supplementing vitamin D3, K2 and taking NAC and L-Citrulline, but I have a really good doctor that is involved in helping me decide what to take. I don't generally add anything in without consulting with him.



mca80
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Re: Pre Season Conditioning

Post by mca80 » Thu Dec 29, 2022 4:15 pm

I haven't had a doctor I liked since my 20s. Everyone I see wants to put me on various pharmaceuticals rather than natural supplements.



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