Light gear does a good telemarker make?

[Lhartley]

Agreed, BUT, can an mr48 be any WORSE than Lo-fi' edge less karhus, or Jared's Spyders (edit, the video clearly says hes on gammes. My bad)or whatever he's on in that video? I can't stress enough that my point point is to be able to tele whatever I'm on, not have the turn dictate what I'm skiing.

Anyways, not trying to argue that one should learn to tele on twigs, like lofi said he had wasted a year of his life or whatever, there's appropriate gear out there for learning. I don't think the thesis of the original article, was "go learn to tele on e99s". Not sure how some folks started projecting that. The statement was "skiing light gear made me a better telemarker". And if you can ski your whole quiver, instead of just your mid waste stuff and up, are you not a better telemarker? Or is the point nowadays to ONLY be able to absolutely shred on hypervectors and t2s? Cus that's not my point or why I sought out this forum. I found a whole SPECTRUM of skiing i didn't understand before, and can grab a pair of skis and go ski golf courses and somehow make that enjoyable, and that's amazing

[phoenix]

"I agree, but sometimes the terrain doesn’t justify bigger gear. Sometimes that XC gear is best, and the Tele turns on that gear aren’t the best. I like heavier as well, on terrain suited to heavier gear."

Absolutely. I tried to express that referring to my light ski skiing, but didn't clarify. I always remember the quote by Alan Bard (RIP; an icon of the early freewheel renaissance): " It doesn't matter the places you choose or the tools you use; it's all skiing".

[Inspiredcapers]

LHartley- If I ever found myself in Tahoe I’d be really tempted to look up Jared Manninen, I’ve found some inspiration and useful tips in his videos/postings.

[greatgt]

Once you find your balance skinny is not only thrilling but efficient. Ski anything on them with some conditions better than others. Powder and sweet corn are two of my favorites. Best corn? Tuckermans and powder, wicked up in the Highlands. Sometimes or often just being out there with a workout in the Bush is wonderful. Other day cruising the forest on moderate terrain, skis just flew. Drops picked up speed instantly and rode the skis without effort. Just along for the ride! Thanks skis. Gotta remember the last ride broke my newer 109's. Ripped the binding out so will have to get some decent epoxy or glue. Good time to crank up the 99's. They flew at tucks a decade or so back. Still from my point of view the best ski ever made. Wagh! TM

[Lhartley]

LHartley- If I ever found myself in Tahoe I’d be really tempted to look up Jared Manninen, I’ve found some inspiration and useful tips in his videos/postings.

I at the very least owe him a patreon donation, I found his kick and glide lessons very helpful, along with many other great tutorials

[lilcliffy]

Been thinking a while on how to respond to this question-

I think that it is important to define what we mean by “telemarker” (and also what we mean when we say “good”)-

I also think it important to define what we mean by “light” gear-

If what we are talking about is the modern downhill ski discipline of “Telemark” skiing-
Meaning, downhill skiing with modern Telemark boots, bindings and downhill skis-

If what we mean by “light” gear is Nordic ski touring gear (aka “backcountry-crosscountry”)- with soft, flexible Nordic touring boots, Nordic touring bindings, and Nordic touring skis-

Then→ NO- I do not think that using “light” gear will make you a better “Telemark” skier.

Modern Telemark equipment allows one to downhill ski truly steep mountainous terrain- near to the level of skill and speed of modern Alpine ski equipment.

Whether one has exceptional skill- or is simply a mere mortal like most of us- one cannot downhill ski on “light” equipment to the extreme level that one can on “Telemark” equipment.

And the only way to develop advanced modern downhill skiing skills is to push yourself in that context- a skiing context that cannot be done on “light” equipment.

If downhill training on “light” equipment made one a better “Telemark” skier- than all of the world-class Telemark skiers would be doing this.

This being said- all Nordic skiing is superb for developing balance, strength and fitness- these things benefit all skiing disciplines. I can certainly see the benefits of Nordic skiing for a Telemark skier, as part of a training program- but the Telemark skier is Nordic skiing to maintain balance, strength and fitness- not directly improve their downhill skiing techniques.

If what we are talking about is more broadly the “Telemark” turn- that can be done with any Nordic and/or Telemark boot with a flexible sole-

I certainly think that making effective Telemark turns on “light” gear might certainly help with developing balance- but I cannot see how it would be necessary to develop balance on "light" gear in order to be balanced on Telemark equipment. One can develop the balance necessary to Telemark ski- simply by Telemark skiing. If one wants to become more "centered" or balanced in a rigid plastic boot- loosen them right up and point them down a steep, rough slope- this has been used as a downhill training drill for generations.

What I can say from my own limited experience and observation-
I have found it rare that "Telemark" skiers (or Alpine skiers for that matter)- using modern downhill Telemark equipment- find it “easy” to ski downhill on light gear.
I have found that skiers that have much skill skiing downhill on “light” gear- find it very easy to ski downhill on modern “Telemark” equipment.
Effective downhill skiing on “light” gear is very challenging and requires much commitment and time to develop the balance, strength and skill to do it effectively and consistently.
While I have seen exceptional downhill skiers- with exceptional skill and fitness- take to downhill skiing on light gear very quickly-
Most intermediate to advanced modern downhill skiers- including those that are fit- are physically completely lost on light gear that is pointed down a steep hill- their bodies have no idea what to do without high, rigid boots, and active/rigid bindings.

When it comes to the “Telemark” turn and associated stance-

On “light” equipment I use the Telemark turn/stance first and foremost for stability-
Without a high, stiff boot, and a rigid/active binding- any time I feel myself losing balance (in any skiing context), I immediately tuck my trailing foot under my butt and heavily weight it. In many, many contexts, the only way to maintain balance (and not go flying “over-the-handle-bars”) is to tuck that trailing foot under your butt and heavily weight it. On “light” equipment, the trailing foot and the “little toe” is everything when it comes to the Telemark turn. As much as I make Telemark turns on light gear just for fun- because it does feel wonderful- I must admit that I primarily use the Telemark turn/stance for stability with a soft, flexible Nordic touring boot and a completely free Nordic touring binding.

On modern “Telemark” equipment- I find I can do anything I want! With the incredible support and leverage of high, stiff boots and rigid/active bindings- I can make any turn I want! On modern Telemark equipment, I make Telemark turns first and foremost for fun- not because I need to. One does not need to make a Telemark turn on modern Telemark equipment. One does not need to equally weight each ski- let alone heavily weight the trailing/uphill foot and “little toe”- on modern Telemark equipment.

I don’t think that “light” gear does a good “Telemarker” make (by “Telemarker” I am speaking of the modern downhill ski discipline)-

But, I also don’t think that being an effective modern “Telemarker”- on modern Telemark equipment- automatically makes one able to effectively ski downhill on “light” gear.

[lilcliffy]

And Lo-Fi's Telemark turns are superb- pay attention to where his uphill/rear/"trailing" foot is- it is under his core- not trailing behind him.

[Lhartley]

For today's trip to Nakiska I took two setups to explore this topic a bit. I'm cheating by skipping the leather boots, I'm not there yet. Setup one this morning was 90mm karhu jack bc with hammerheads on 5th setting, and t1 boots. First time on these skis and only second time on t1. My regular daily setup is hypervector class skis with regular switchbacks and t2's. So this hammerhhead/t1 setup has me out of my comfort zone.
Soft snow made for good conditions and I'm able to make good turns with proper lead changes. Just my standard skiing, but one notable thing is I find myself exhausted by the heavier gear than I'm used to. Sets of 12 to 18 turns and then I'm taking a breather.

So went and grabbed the lighter setup consisting of m68's with switchback x2 (don't ask. I bought them used like that and haven't swapped them out for 3 pin cables yet) and t4. I'm running these m68s long for me at 195. So anyways, this setup isn't completely foreign to me as I've already skied m78s at the resort quite a bit, but the narrower waist and longer length is an adventure. After a few runs on the m68 nothing really surprising except that the light setup is far less exhausting than the heavy setup I used in rhe morning. Mellow blue groomers are an absolute pleasure cruising late in the day. One thing g of note, that may support the attached article, the lighter setup DID make me use techniques I normally wouldn't. On steep pitches in manky snow I was using stem tele and interestingly enough I found the "paramark" turn discussed in the other thread especially helpful. I had seen a girl using that technique almost exclusively early in the morning and it kinda resonated with me and at it worked really well on the m68s when I was having troubles linking turns. It actually felt more natural to use those techniques than to revert to p-turns like I'd normally do if I was in trouble on my heavier gear. Anyways, that's my experience, I'm probably not a better skier for it but brushing up on those alternate turn techniques will be very helpful for me in some of the shit conditions the Alberta BC has seen lately.

[fisheater]

Gareth, thank you, well written. Much better than a bunch of random posts I made.

[lilcliffy]

@fisheater
Your welcome my friend- and thank-you!

To be more blunt- and personal-

Personally, on "light" gear, I cannot do what I can do downhill on modern Telemark equipment- and I will never claim that I can!

But, my skills touring on light gear in steep backcountry conditions- have not come from dowhill skiing on Telemark equipment- and I have no evidence that charging downhill at the ski hill in high, stiff plastic boots and bindings would make me better at Fjellskiing.

Nordic touring equipment is what best suits the terrain, forest cover and winter snow conditions in my local, regional backcountry context. Therefore, at this time in my life I am focused on my balance, strength, fitness, and skills on Nordic touring equipment.