Fischer E-109 vs. Asnes Ingstad

[lilcliffy]

I don't know if it got lost in the last flurry of posts but the tail is definitely stiffer on the S78 and the Ingstad than the Eon. It should stay flatter in deep snow.

Interesting...I'll have to do some flexing of my Eons...

How about the Eon itself- do you find the tail of the Eon softer than its tip? I have always thought the tail of the Eon was stiffer than the its tip...But- maybe I have it wrong. I'll do some investigating.

I actually had no issue with the 78 in that deep snow I was in earlier this week. It didn't feel like it was bowing as I was touring with it.

This is revealing as well. Your camber-stiffness tests have revealed that these XCD-touring skis (Eon/S78/Ingstad) all have near identical stiffness in the camber dimension. But that is not the whole story...

Canna and Tom have described the flex pattern well- that initial softness- but as you approach flattening the camber- the ski becomes resistant (almost like a coiled spring). (Mike- similar to your descriptions of the the incredible stiffness of the second camber on your Glitts). It's sounding like the S78 is similar to the Ingstad in this dimension...

The Eon is nothing like that. The Eon has even a little bit more initial camber-stiffness- but as you approach flattening out the camber there seems much less resistance than the Ingstad/S78- it reverse-flexes with very little effort. This is not necessarily a negative quality when downhill skiing on soft snow. But- it has a very significant negative effective on XC K&G performance.

In order to get effective and efficient K&G there has to be enough resistance to support that kick and glide.

I suppose the relevance of all of this depends a lot on the snow you are skiing on- as well as your technique or skiing style (and of course skier weight). I push my skis very hard to perform- and for years I have found the Eon wanting- it does not have enough resistance for me.

The flotation issue is a big deal as well. I would never expect a ski in these mid-width dimensions to offer effective flotation in truly deep snow (not unless it was as long as a 270cm Finnish hunting ski!). But I do expect a Nordic ski this wide to offer effective flotation in at least moderately-deep snow (say to 16 inches). Heck- that's probably the only reason I would own a Nordic ski in these dimensions! The lack of resistance in the Eon gives little effective flotation. At 185lbs, when I am on more than 12 inches of fresh, soft snow, the waist of the Eon sinks to the base, leaving the tips floating near the surface. Again this does not seem to be an issue with lighter skiers.

In my opinion, if a mid-width XCD ski cannot support effective K&G on moderately-deep fresh snow, it’s not worth having. You might as well be on a narrower, stiffer, faster ski like the E-99/Glittertind/Gamme 54.

[MikeK]

How about the Eon itself- do you find the tail of the Eon softer than its tip? I have always thought the tail of the Eon was stiffer than the its tip...But- maybe I have it wrong. I'll do some investigating.

One would think that is the case, but I think they might be more even.

If I just push on the center of either the S78 or the Ingstad and brace the tip, they feel like they flex stiffer than the Eon. Just grabbing the tips and flexing them, the Eon is perhaps the softest, then the Ingstad, then the S78, but it's not a lot.

So them I paid attention to what was moving when I was pushing in the center. I could see the tail of the Eon bending much more that the other two. To confirm, I held the center and flexed just the tails... Yup, the Ingstad and the S78 felt a lot stiffer, and about the same stiffness.

If you grab the skis, put them base to base and push together, they all feel pretty close (as is indicated by my graphs). When I get to where I think the bases should be touching and I'm squeezing with both hands, on all the skis I can see a sliver of light through. It's almost impossible to squeeze that out by hand, but it's not like an E99 or a Glittertind. It's probably less than or about a mm total gap between the two skis.

[lilcliffy]

If I just push on the center of either the S78 or the Ingstad and brace the tip, they feel like they flex stiffer than the Eon.

This is it. Similar camber-flex- but the S78/Ingstad overall have a stiffer flex and offer more resistance- exactly what I am looking for!

Just grabbing the tips and flexing them, the Eon is perhaps the softest, then the Ingstad, then the S78, but it's not a lot.

So them I paid attention to what was moving when I was pushing in the center. I could see the tail of the Eon bending much more that the other two. To confirm, I held the center and flexed just the tails... Yup, the Ingstad and the S78 felt a lot stiffer, and about the same stiffness.

Smoking gun.

[Cannatonic]

LC if you get 210 you'll be riding high, it will be like driving a tank over everything I would think. the Asnes website describes the nato as "A versatile backcountry ski for hunting and military use". If it's good enough for dragging your prey out of the woods, it must float well. your weight is not going to bend the 210 much.

[lilcliffy]

Thanks to the kindness and support of a certain friend on the forum- I have purchased a set of 210cm Asnes Combat Nato from Neptune Mountaineering (military version of the Ingstad).

They have been shipped to Houlton, ME. Not sure when I will get em here and get them mounted...they are currently burning a hole in my head.

After a week of decent waxless "spring" (following last week's rain)- we got another rain storm today.

Have not a chance to get out and see how bad it is....

Fredericton is bare and green!

We still have enough snow in the woods to ski- if it stays warm enough, to remain soft.

Hopefully I get a chance to test the new Asnes' this "winter".

[athabascae]

Wahoo!

We're a boring bunch, however, all buying essentially the same ski as of late. Who's going to get a Nansen, Mountain Race or Gamme - and ski them?

Congratulations lilcliffy. Hope they work out for you, and that the weather turns.

Believe it or not, we had rain at low elevations in southern Yukon today too - its like late April - yuck.

Tom

[MikeK]

I think this forum cleared Neptune out of at least half their stock!

Well once you find the gems, and you are nuts about this type of skiing, it's hard to pass them up.

My wife firmly told me: No more skis this year! But she completely understood why I bought the Grey man and the new boots. And she's right too, we have too many now, time to thin the herd!

[lilcliffy]

So I finally have my new 210cm Combat Natos/Ingstads in my hands!!!!

I bought them from Neptune Mountaineering. I also bought the 60mm mohair skinlock skin.

These skis are the “Combat Nato”. For those that are not aware, the Ingstad is the civilian version of the Combat Nato. Although I would be honored to have the Grey Man on my skis- I do have a thing for combat skis- so I am quite happy to have the military version.

I have not yet prepped them (i.e. waxed them,) nor got a binding on them.

I was out on my Eon Wax tonight- and am starting to strongly consider ordering another set of the standard NNNBC-Manual bindings for the Ingstad/Combat Nato. The standard 56mm Manual binding plate is more than adequate for the Eon- so it should be a good fit for the Combat Nato/Ingstad.

I have them sitting up in my kitchen so that I can glance at them constantly ,and “feel them up” during the day…

I have my 205cm Eon Wax set out beside them for comparison.

Some initial impressions:
• The Asnes Combat Natos are beautiful to behold. The quality of the construction is spellbinding…I particularly dig the “full-wrap” steel edges.
• They have minimal un-deflected camber. At first glance, they appear to be single-cambered- the Eons have significantly more un-deflected camber than the Combat Nato.
• The Combat Nato has a significantly stiffer flex than the Eon. I can feel the stiffness/resistance underfoot when I stand on the skis- BUT- I can really feel it when I try to force the skis into a reverse-flexed position. The Eon reverse-flexes much more easily than the Combat Nato- it is very obvious.
• The Combat Nato does have an effective wax pocket underfoot. The initial camber (though moderately stiff) compresses relatively easily. But if I hold them base-against-base, I cannot squeeze the bases together. The resistance in the flex pattern of the Combat Nato is powerful.
• The flex pattern of the Combat Nato is almost identical to my Eons. The tips on the Combat Nato are slightly open (just like the Eon)- slightly rockered. But the camber of the ski is full, and smooth throughout the length of the ski (excluding the open tip). The difference is the greater stiffness/resistance of the Combat Nato.
• The tips of the Combat Nato/Ingstad are broad, extended and upturned (i.e. “old school”).
• They feel remarkably light in my hands.

When I first unwrapped these skis- I was anxious about the lack of un-deflected camber…

But, when I feel the amount of powerful resistance in the flex of the ski- I am relieved.

Just standing on them, in my kitchen- I am already pleased that I held out for the 210cm.

I am very excited about this ski. I am anticipating that I may have finally found the perfect mid-width XCD ski…Enough stiffness/resistance for effective K&G snap- but with a camber that can reasonably be controlled in downhill turns…

Can barely stand to wait to test them…

We still have excellent ski conditions. But, I am very much aware that could change at a moment’s notice….

[Woodserson]

I'm sorry, can you jog the memory on your weight again? Also, 'The resistance in the flex pattern of the Combat Nato is powerful' makes me feel like we're all Ski Ninjas. Looking forward to some day in the future when we sit around a campfire in the snowy woods describing the power within our skis and how to unleash it upon our foes.

You're lucky with the snow conditions... I was deep into the north country in NH last week and there is nothing... even 5,000' mountain summits were just rockpiles.

[Cannatonic]

So I finally have my new 210cm Combat Natos/Ingstads in my hands!!!!

nice!! the thrill of sizing UP in length….you're committed, there's no doubt about it, you'll HAVE to go faster! your turns will be longer, you'll need some more space between the trees, etc, I love it. In XC mode in deep snow or breakthrough crust 210 can make a huge difference. Sure you don't want 3-pin to steer those babies? It's interesting that Asnes has settled on the classic pre-90's slalom ski profile for 3 of their models. Shaped just like old racing skis except much lighter with more camber.

I wonder if Neptune noticed an uptick in sales this year! Even the 1970's combat ones are selling well around here. I see the logic in the ski sale - they get you on skins later. there's 4 different sizes, mohair, synthetic, etc, they never go on sale either.