Light & agile tele: SB with the new transnordic leather?

[TheMusher]

OK, everybody

So I received the boots today. Below are some first impressions and side-by-side with Crispi Bre to put them in perspective.

First off, these are BIG and tall, but still relatively light due to the rubber bottom. I also find them extremely comfortable and cozy due to the roomy toe-box and wool liner, so these must be perfect for touring. I can also foresee that the roomy toebox somehwat adversely affects DH performance.

Pivot point is noticable further back compared to the Bre, so inherently more active boots.
Otherwise, the rubber is stiff except for above the toes, so hard to bend in any direction.

Ancle support is very strong - not plastic level but still significant and to the point where it is not possible to fully bend the ancle (as is possible with the Crispi Bre)

Lastly, the soles look identifical, but without the top layer of stitched leather you'd find on the Bre.

Importantly, they come with 3-pin holes! Hard to understand why they are less compatible with 3-pins than other 75mm. The only reason I can think of is the inherent activity of the boot and the stiff rubber which may affect the way the pins deteriorate the 3-pin holes.

Overall impression:
Love these for what they are. Vastly more stable, active and supportive boots than any Crispi leather boot I've previously owned.Somewhat roomy toebox, which may negatively affect DH performance. Obviously, these are not tailored specifically for downhill, but I can easily see them perform very well in the right conditions.

Main and only concern remains to what extent the soles can withstand the pressure of hardwires - as pointed out by Telerat and Bgreg above. Redeeming factor may indeed be the multi-directional sitffness of the rubber, which are by no way comparable to my other leather boots.

Furhter to these facts, I believe Lundhags repair (if 3 pins break the soles over time, at a cost obviously) and custom-fit (welted?) soles on demand. Maybe this is the solution?

Receiving the Transnordics any day. Will make a similar comparison and see which one makes it to the field trials.

[havuja]

Thanks for the details!

Lundhags MUST make these work with 3pins, and perhaps even more important, make an Explore version of them.
I mean, what more could you wish for?

[bgregoire]

@TheMusher & co.,

Some extra thoughts about the Lundhags.

I'd like to emphasize that the sole used on the Lundhags is the same as found on ALL other thermomolded 75mm VIBRAM soles. So there is nothing distinctive here about the sole construction of this boot and any point in comparing to other thermomolded Vibram soles (the Vibram sole of norwegian stitched boots is different and named the Ferret 1015).

I digged yet again on the Lundhags website and found a clear reasoning as to why its not recommended for 3 pin bindings:

Guide Expedition 75 is made for telemark bindings. We advise against the use of 3-pin bindings, which can wear out the boot’s toe construction. Instead, we recommend like "Voilé Switchback", and "Rottefella Riva", 412, "Chili", and "Cobra R4".

So they are saying its the toebox. Lundhags has a massive plastic toebox. I'm now quite convinced they are worried the top of rat trap bindings will dig in top it and either puncture it or most probably sever it off of the sole, as we have found can happen when the Alpina Alaska is used in combination with a Voile 3-pin binding (Mountaineer, 3-pin cable).

I think I was a little confused with this version of the boot VS the previous one, all black. They made version for the Army style binding and 75mm back then too, but I believe they were ussing their own soles rather than Vibram.

@TheMusher Looking at your pictures comparing to the Bre, surprised the Lundhags looks so much bigger. Did you choose then in the same shoe size?

Oh and I will add my two cents here and say I would not consider any leather boot more active than the other. I'd consider them all mostly 0 active. Some have more support than others thought. The significant activity we are "interested" in is the resistance provided by a cable.

Good luck!

[TheMusher]

Lundhags are masters yes, but from my understanding these expedition boots were designed primarily for touring (and say hunting), so fjellskiing. Switchbacks (especially the X2s and other cartridge cable binding) are designed for downhill telemark, which is another design mindset altogether.

I have zero trouble understanding why Nordic special forces would chose variants of these boots, skiing with heavy back-packs in varied and unpredictable (but seldom steep) terrain..

After sofa-testing them for 24 hrs, I concur with your above statement. The Lundhags are extremely comfortable, pretty stiff (but slightly less than the Transnordic), and just overall bombproof.While I'm sure they'd safely take you down from Store Ringstind, they're indeed not purpose-built for forceful downhill skiing.

In fact, I may just end up keeping them for reasons other than why I bought them. I love my Crispi Stetind for BC touring, but these feel second nature to the extent I just don't want to take them off - even at home(!)

@TheMusher Looking at your pictures comparing to the Bre, surprised the Lundhags looks so much bigger. Did you choose then in the same shoe size?

Yes they're both size 44.
The toe box is HUGE and comfortable. Initially thought this would be a major issue for stabiltiy, but after further consideration, I find the heel and ancle well locked-in, so the roomy toe box actually allows for spreading the toes to promote stability (comparable to Altra toe box for trail runners..). Again, probably not ideal for steep, forceful turns.

Instead, we recommend like "Voilé Switchback", and "Rottefella Riva", 412, "Chili", and "Cobra R4".

Question remains of course - given that Lundhags recommend the Switchbacks - how far you could push these boots with that binding. I'm afraid it may only be one way to find out.

Binding wise, they seem somehwat stuck between two chairs;
They're compatible with Switchback, but not designed for Switchback-style steep turns.
They're not compatible with 3-pin (allegedly), but ideal for 3-pin style K&G over varied terrain.

Indeed, it makes the most sense if you transport a heavy backback or pulk. They may be called Expedition for a reason afterall.

[bgregoire]

Binding wise, they seem somehwat stuck between two chairs;
They're compatible with Switchback, but not designed for Switchback-style steep turns.
They're not compatible with 3-pin (allegedly), but ideal for 3-pin style K&G over varied terrain.

Indeed, it makes the most sense if you transport a heavy backback or pulk. They may be called Expedition for a reason afterall.

Indeed, you are homing in on the perfect setup for these. Get yourself some LIGHT non cartridge cable bindings (RIVAs) and you will have the ultimate bushwacking/hunting/camping ski setup.

[TheMusher]

OK - so I'm scoping in on my new maximum comfort survival teleturning quiver.

After extensive touring in my living room, I've come to the conclusion that the Transnordics are the likely boots of choice for earning turns with leather. Without having tried them in the field, they may seem have found a sweet spot between a T4 and general leathers.

They are significantly more comfy that plastics, they provide strong ancle support and general stiffness with plastic/metal(?) reinforcements alongside. They also have a clear foward tilted downhill geometry. I think they will be good for touring in alpine terrain.

I have some issues with the awkward wedge formed at the toe breaking/pivot point (see pic), but willing to patiently hope that this will resolve itself with usage.

That being said, I will keep the Lundhags - 75 or BC format - for nordic touring. What an absolute treasure those boots are. Total artifact. Surprised they havent gathered a bigger fanbase here.

So I'm down to 3pinHW vs Switchback (thanks for ruling out X2 @@telerat with the transnordics.
From what I gather, there's a strong support here in favor of the 3pin-HW (@fisheater , @lowangle al, @connyro et al) .

Because they have comparable DH capabilities & weight, it comes down to some second considerations:
(1) How inferior are 3pin-hw when skinning, really? Say you're doing 2-5 steep teletouring trips every season..
(2) How inferior are the Switchback when striding in your average flat or rolling terrain - with pulk or heavy backpack - compared to 3-pin?

I hope to the quiver will have a secondary purpose for multi-day touring (pulk or nordic sled) when that extra stability is needed - often with a multitude of dogs. Some stable 75mm would be a welcome addition, but maybe overreaching here to think the SB can cover this purpose?

Did I mention everyone should have a pair of the Lundhags?

[fisheater]

I would suggest an insole, or extra sock. You need to fill that unfilled area of those boots. That type of crease will hurt you

[TheMusher]

I would suggest an insole, or extra sock. You need to fill that unfilled area of those boots. That type of crease will hurt you

Thanks! See that now, along with other creative(!) tips, in the crease control thread.

[TheMusher]

(1) How inferior are 3pin-hw when skinning, really? Say you're doing 2-5 steep teletouring trips every season..
(2) How inferior are the Switchback when striding in your average flat or rolling terrain - with pulk or heavy backpack - compared to 3-pin?

Any chance to tap into the forum's collective expertise on these two questions?

[lowangle al]

(1) How inferior are 3pin-hw when skinning, really? Say you're doing 2-5 steep teletouring trips every season..
(2) How inferior are the Switchback when striding in your average flat or rolling terrain - with pulk or heavy backpack - compared to 3-pin?

Any chance to tap into the forum's collective expertise on these two questions?

If you are going to do a lot of skinning get the SB. Even if you don't do a lot of skinning the SB K&Gs well due to the "dead" spot that allows your boot to pivot freely before the springs engage. The one advantage of the HW is that you can remove the heel throws to save weight. I used to like them for that reason but found I prefer skiing with the heel throws on. The other advantage is that they are cheaper, so if you don't skin much and/or don't ski a high stiff four buckle boot the HW is a good choice.