Fischer 2015-2016 product line-up???

[connyro]

I'd like to also turn your attention exhibit B:

http://www.earnyourturns.com/33004/waxl ... i-roundup/

We all know who this guy is, and like it or not he's pretty influential in the ski world.

What I want to point out is how conveniently there is no Eon or Epoch and there is no Traverse 78 or Excursion 88 in the article and instead the V6, the Charger and the XCD Stinger.

The Knights are turning in their graves...

Well, it's pretty clear that over here, we pretty much focus on the XC side of XCD while over "there" they focus on the D side of XCD. Both perspectives are fine, and I'm glad there's both perspectives because some of us are pretty much in the middle of the XCD spectrum...would that be xCd?

[MikeK]

Where do you draw the line? You can put fishscales on any ski. Does that make XCD?

Does it make sense to tell people a Vector is only a trail ski? Not to me. Seems like serious overkill.

I like to think about it like bikes. At some point someone is going to tell you you need a slacked out, 6" travel, FS bike to have fun riding. You do? I ride with a guy who still rides his 1990 Cannondale rigid bike and it does just fine on any trail around here. I don't like the geo personally, I wouldn't have like it in 1990 either, but it's just not the bike for me. I like my rigid bike and it's harder to ride on technical stuff, but I can.

Do I feel the need to ride a full on FS, dh bike on XC terrain. Hell no. I also know if I took my bike, as it is, on some of the lift served bike terrain that those bikes thrive on, I'd probably break it, and probably hurt myself too.

People can do whatever they want... but no one is going to get good at skiing xc by walking around in plastic boots with heavy skis. And that's fine for them, they'll probably spend more time skiing lifts and dreaming about skiing big lines.

I prefer to piss with the dick I'm given. And when I look comparatively at the skiable terrain out there in the backcountry, the vast majority is XC.

[connyro]

Where do you draw the line?

Why do we need to draw lines? Look at the crazy setups that LJ and Bri7 like to assemble: those are some pretty blurred lines. That is where innovation comes from IMO.

And when I look comparatively at the skiable terrain out there in the backcountry, the vast majority is XC.

That is true for regions like where you and I live and ski but less true for people who live in actual mountainous terrain.

XCD to ME means XC enabled DH skiing. XC is the access while DH is the thrill, all on one setup. There's no goal, just recreation.

[MikeK]

Drawing lines? Everyone makes their own. I was speaking of my own rationale. Your line may be different.

XCD to me means anytime I go down a hill on XC skis. I go down hills on my XC bike, but I don't even think of it that way - it's just MTB. In the same sense when I'm on my freeheel skis I'm just Nordic Skiing, and usually I just think of it as skiing.

Problem is there are a million and one other assholes out there who don't view it as worthy to the title of skiing because there are no movies made about it, so they feel the need to impress and conquer their type of skiing on others. Hence the reason you see AT skiers on XC ski trails.

I seriously think if there is no passion left for the way we ski, it will go away. If the equipment disappears, so will the skills.

[Woodserson]

It's not always about how you "passed them on the way back to the car." Unless you are a pro racer or trying to escape a Bond villian ( skiing is about sliding on snow and having fun, so whatever floats your boat is just fine.

No it's not about passing them on the way to the car, but I'm sure you understand what I'm getting at-- a lowland XC tour and this poor group schlepping pounds of extra equipment, taking skins off every down, back on for every up. Repeat ad nauseam. I hung out with them, they were very chill, they were also XC skiers in the past, and gave it up for some reason. (One was on old Backcountry Rossi fishscales).

So fart. I am the last person that needs to be lectured about zen and la glisse.

[connyro]

Problem is there are a million and one other assholes out there who don't view it as worthy to the title of skiing ... so they feel the need to impress and conquer their type of skiing on others.

Hahaha. Agreed. That's my sole beef with TM...

I seriously think if there is no passion left for the way we ski, it will go away. If the equipment disappears, so will the skills.

IMO, skiing in general needs a reset. And MTB for that matter. Both seem to be more defined by how you look, what equipment you use ($$$), and where you are seen. It's fluff bravado and image and that seems to be what most people are interested in these days. But there's always going to be people who don't buy into that crap and maintain the skills regardless of what other people are doing, so I don't think skiing is going to vanish...

[connyro]

No it's not about passing them on the way to the car, but I'm sure you understand what I'm getting at-- a lowland XC tour and this poor group schlepping pounds of extra equipment, taking skins off every down, back on for every up. Repeat ad nauseam. I hung out with them, they were very chill, they were also XC skiers in the past, and gave it up for some reason. (One was on old Backcountry Rossi fishscales).

So fart. I am the last person that needs to be lectured about zen and la glisse.

I don't mean to ruffle any feathers. and I do understand what you're getting at. I see the same type of skiers here on "overkill gear" doing the same type of skiing you describe: heavy AT/heavy tele setups with skins on short hills. I can understand in a way. I grew up XC and DH skiing. XC is alright I suppose, but for me, the real thrill was high-speed DH skiing. I never really understood the thrill of XC skiing until I got older and away from the XC and DH resorts. I think some people are looking for ways to escape the shitty aspects of modern resort skiing while retaining the thrill of DH skiing. I learned that XCD-style skiing turns out to be exactly what I wanted, but not before slogging around the woods on overly heavy tele rigs/skins or floundering around on steeps on underweight XC gear.

[Woodserson]

Hmmm, I have a similar backstory. Grew up on DH skiing exclusively, segued into AT skiing and then got introduced to XC and realized I had been pooh-poohing for far too long. Started dabbling in straight-up XC with some AT, and then a back injury pretty much took me out of the DH scene for a winter or two, and I never went back. Soon realized I wanted heavier gear for the downhills than my in-track XC skis, but didn't want to return to the AT stuff. It's been a real evolution, and I love it and now I'm trying to convert my friends with limited success. I'm just happy to see people outside, though, enjoying the snow.

I used to want to conquer the mountain, then I wanted to dance with her, now I want to become part of the mountain and her foothills, quietly leaving my marks up-- and then down.

[connyro]

I used to want to conquer the mountain, then I wanted to dance with her, now I want to become part of the mountain and her foothills, quietly leaving my marks up-- and then down.

x2. Well put.

[Woodserson]

IMO, skiing in general needs a reset. And MTB for that matter. Both seem to be more defined by how you look, what equipment you use ($$$), and where you are seen. It's fluff bravado and image and that seems to be what most people are interested in these days. But there's always going to be people who don't buy into that crap and maintain the skills regardless of what other people are doing, so I don't think skiing is going to vanish...

WOW. This is very apt. I just found an older book on XC-Skiing, 1973, called The Cross-Country Ski, Cook, Look & Pleasure Book by Hal Painter. I highly recommend it. We're the only type of people that are going to get it. It is a weird one though, with energy-tents and a narrative on the pleasures of sex in the snow. But there are some hard truths too. Allow me to quote a passage:

"Dear Answer Man,

Here's what is bothering me. So many times have I gone touring in the woods when I bump into some people who say, "Hi," and then all they talk about is, hey, where you get those skis, how much they cost you, that nice parka but mine better, where can I buy a hat like that, those pants are not as good as these pants because that's what it says in this magazine, and stuff like that, all the time.

Once I war a hat from my native Finland, and everybody who sees me on the trail says, "Hi, where did you get that hat." I say it was given to me by a Laplander lady who is old friend of family, and then when they find out she have none of these for sale, they want to give me ten bucks if they can have the hat.

One young man offers me a of of money and all he wants to do is take the hat apart and see how it's made so he can go home and make a bunch and sell them in some store, it is such a "groovy" hat he says.

I tell him to go to hell, the lady who make this hat for me would not be happy if I give it away to sell, and besides this, I like it very much because it is my hat and I like very much the lady who make it for me. Always it is the Americans who ask me things like this, and I wonder- have they no place to get nice things but in a store? Buy, buy, buy- that's all they do.

Some young people I meet on the trail I like because I see them sometimes in clothes they make at home. Once I see this girl in a black dress with white lace on the collar, and I think of my mother and what she wore when I was a young boy in Finland. The boy she is with has some kind of pack he made from leather, and I tell him how good it is to see somebody who makes things with his hands. He offers me an orange to eat, so we sit down and talk about the woods and the mountains, and he wants to know how people do things in my homeland and what kind of place is that.

Pretty soon we are drinking some of my good Finnish vodka and eating some good bread and cheese. I would like to do this more often, that's why I get tired of all this talk, where you buy this, where you buy that, and so pretty soon I buy a ticket and go home and take the hat with me.

Can't people think of something better to talk about when they are out in the snow and the mountains and have a good chance to be together?"

Pg. 120-121 The Cross-Country Ski, Cook, Look &Pleasure Book, Painter, 1973.