The NNN/BC Truth Thread

[TeleMarcin]

TeleMarcin,

I don't know why the Salomon SNS XA is so tough and unbreakable despite its appearance.
It's a real buddy for us, isn't it?.

[Raventele]

And I am not sure why you are convinced that pinners must ski all spread out ??

I said that you ask your friends to hold their (still) poses of telemark skiing like commemorative photo.

It seems that you picked mainly the photos of the lighter end of XCD, and many of them don't stand for the styles at the maximum state of turns. Here again, your arbitrary definition of XCD is making the followers of this thread confused. How about put up the photos of the heaviest side of XCD in which you trust most? Let's say a set, Scarpa T2 eco/Voile 3-pin hard-wire/skis with 80mm width at center.

Cima, any hard definition of XCD is bound to be arbitrary..When someone tries to define it as overland skiing on System gear, that's pretty arbitrary..I would say it's wiser to err on the side of a broader definition. Perhaps it could be instructive to take a good look at what folks have been calling BC skiing in New England for many years to get a better fix on the whole XCD idea ??
I think Dave says many things well..http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/Dirtbag ... rtbag.html

Most of what you see in those pix I posted are 3pin cables, leathers or lite plastics and mainly old narrower alpine boards, though there are also some "vintage" Tele skis there as well..

Here's something like you want..But seriously I would not really call this XCD gear.. I would and do climb the closed ski areas in it sometimes though..I have to work hard for a compact stance, to save my bad knee!!!!

The Telemark Truth:

NTN skiers keep bashing on 75mm because they're not good enough to ski them.
75mm skiers keep bashing on 3-pin because they're not good enough to ski them.
3-pin skiers keep bashing on real XC because they're not good enough to ski them.

(The same truth applies to ski width... : )

You're a REAL telemark skier only when you can ski any trail on the Birkenstocks system.
CIMA, please start your own NNN thread with daily pictures...!

But the REAL XCD Truth is that we all have a very wide range of gear ..
I am also wanting to read Cima's thread on NNN.. I am hoping to learn how to take some stress off the knees and ski really light gear better at the same time.. And there are things I do not understand, like how to really get your weight proper for Tele when your pivot point is a little metal bar under your toes..And how can you flex a stiffer- soled boot with no real leverage ?

[CIMA]

I think Dave says many things well..http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/Dirtbag ... rtbag.html

His naming, "nordic" BC skiing, seems correct, but rewording that with "XCD" would mislead folks sometimes as a whole, including skiers outside the US.

Here's something like you want..But seriously I would not really call this XCD gear.. I would and do climb the closed ski areas in it sometimes though..I have to work hard for a compact stance, to save my bad knee!!!!

See, the green-jacket guy on your pix is on the way to a maximum state of right turn and about to shift his weight to his leading foot. At the maximum state, his posture would have looked like that of split-stance-squat to one degree or another. That's natural because his stiff and forward-leaning plastic boots forced him to shift his weight forward then spread his feet regardless whether he likes spread-style or not.

Some of my friends gave up on telemark and switched to AT because of their knee problems.
If they had been on soft and low-upper-cuff boots and skied on soft snow mainly, they wouldn't have suffered such pains. Compactness of stance wouldn't be everything to avoid those sufferings.

And there are things I do not understand, like how to really get your weight proper for Tele when your pivot point is a little metal bar under your toes..And how can you flex a stiffer- soled boot with no real leverage ?

Seeing is believing. Look at this:



If you're on AT boots/bindings and turn in pivot/walk mode, your concern hits a mark because their soles are too stiff. Even I couldn't tele on such setup.

Actually the NNN/BC boots flex at the balls of foot when weight is applied (just like 3-pinners do!) and then release accumulated power efficiently later thanks to the free pivots of the bindings.

[Raventele]

Yes such a weight application is quite possible on NNN or SNS (XC or XCD) and of course 3pin..But the discipline required and the balance necessary seems very very touchy and look how low the hell MUST remain..

[CIMA]

No discipline required.
On powder especially, such weighting is unnecessary and even causes troubles.

[Johnny]

things I do not understand, like how to really get your weight proper for Tele when your pivot point is a little metal bar under your toes

That was the impossible question I kept asking myself when I started to learn tele on leathers... How the F#@! do you weight those things with only 3 little stupid pins?!?

I'm sure it's not much different with a little metal bar and super-soft shoes... It's just a matter of getting used to it... But the feeling must be even better than P-XCD... (P stands for "pins" of course... : )

[Teleman]

E----Z.....Jon-----E....Pins are the best and we have been on SNS and NNN....Where we ski pins are just plain more dependable....However anyone liking SNS or NNN enjoy! it's getting closer....TM

[Raventele]

NNN , great! But what's to keep one from being knocked around by even slightly variable snow ? The little metal bar simply will not do. And lateral stability ? Plastic ridges under the boots ? Better than nothing I suppose..
LJ, weighting does not happen with "pins" per se.. It's exactly the same as with NNN/system EXCEPT the duckbill and the bail on pins provide very good leverage for power transfer..especially, strangely, on a parallel turn..\
Snow packs , so what would be the difference, do you suppose, in terms of angle, where it becomes something of a tossup RE the "diving" issue/ differential between pins and System gear ?? --like 10 degrees versus 16 for pins or whatever .. Not a science but it must be generally true ?

[CIMA]

Again stability...
Again comparing a tent to a log house...
What about soft low-upper-cuff rubber duckbill boots on 3-pins? Are they also stable distinctively?

[Raventele]

Of course not.. it's a chain ..a weak link is .. weak..
High , low..relative..T2's ecos are incomparably more comfortable than T-Race , which
did indeed stress my bad knee beyond tolerance!
But even the T2 needs a binding that bends it!
But still, I will ski my T2's in the manner of the Asian XCD!!!
When you show me!!!