Adapting to NTN - rear ski binding stiffness

[IainAhh]

Hi,

I recently got a NTN setup for the first time. I have been on tele's for years and can ski to a good level.
New gear. Scott the ski, outlaw bindings & 2nd hand Garmont boots. Old gear 7tm, Ener-g & 73cm underfoot width Line skis.

(I have only been out for a couple of days with the new setup so still new to it).
I am finding the new setup a bit weird with the rear ski.
I am used to using the front ski to carve and direct the turn but i do ski a turn with both skis and not just with the rear ski trailing.
With the resistance of the binding the rear ski pivots when i drop into my tele position and i am not getting my usual control with the front ski. Feels like the rear ski is doing more than the front rather than the 65/35 balance i had with my old setup.
I don't think my usual position is particularly low and i have read that you need to turn with a taller position with NTN. (The boot is mounted to the ski center point & bindings set to lowest stiffness).

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to adapt my technique / stance so i feel more on the front ski and the rear is less squirmy?

Thanks Iain

[lowangle al]

Welcome to the forum. I can't speak about ntn specifically but it sounds like you need to figure out how to get centered with the new set up. New boots can be tough to figure out and if your new skis are a lot wider that will make it that much harder. When I went through a similar experience going to a 4 buckle boot with a wide ski I did a lot of touring to get used to it. For me I learned that T turns on hard packed snow with a ski wider than about 100mm underfoot made it difficult to weight the rear ski so I do P turns on the packed snow and save the teles for the off piste.

[IainAhh]

Thanks for the welcome and your reply, you are right about being centred on the new setup, i'll need to experiment a bit.
I hope to go on skiing again on Mon and will see how i get on, weather permitting as in Scotland.
I've tinkered with my new boots and have them fitting a bit tighter / better.
I had fitted inserts to the new skis so i am going to do the same with my old ones and try them sometime with the outlaw bindings.

[Johnny]

Hey, nice setup Iainhh!

The skis have been on my shopping list for years...

Just give it some time to get used to your new setup... The flex on NTN is different from 75mm... Mounting position on the ski is not the same. Even the Outlaw binding itself doesn't flex exactly like Freerides and Freedoms. Resistance on the front of the boot is not at the same place as on Rotte NTN bindings...

So yeah, just experiment and in a few days you'll feel comfortable with this *very nice* setup...!

The outlaws come with the spring set at zero, the most neutral position... Maybe you need to play with the settings a bit? Or try the stiffer springs...

[IainAhh]

A little bit of an update.

I am using leashes at the moment so got some stainless steel D-links and sorted out the boots. I made up an aluminum bracket and used some slightly longer bolts. It worked good today.




A good ski day out today with my kids with a bit of fresh snow.
Review so far:
Outlaw bindings - No lateral movement, good and powerful. I got on a bit better today with centering myself on the new gear. Step-in is nice when you get used to the fact you just stamp on the binding to engage.

Scott the Ski - With a bit of power in the turn, goes round pretty good. Nice float in the soft stuff. I like the double side cut radius, you can do short turns pretty easy. The overall setup with width of ski and bindings is a bit heavier which is noticeable. They work better with a bit of speed.

Garmont Prophet Boots - I am not getting on great with these. I can get ok control with them clamped right up but it kills my feet and ankles after a while. Frustrating. Ok in parallel turns where it doesn't matter so much. But they feel loose in the forefoot in a tele turn. I guess this a known issue.

I wonder if the Scarpa or Crispi boots are better?

[TomH]

You may not have a foot that agrees well with the Prophet. I don't know many that do, myself included. They're pretty well known for crushing toes, as the shell deforms when you start maxing out the bellows, and effectively shortens the boot length. Add the fact that it's pretty hard to achieve decent heel hold without the heel pocket buckle, and it just compounds the problem.

Regarding technique, it sounds like you were front foot dominant (possibly too much so) on your old gear. When you get on NTN, the increased lateral stiffness will tend to punish you if you're not actively skiing both skis. Until you get sorted, I'd strive for a lot more back foot weight, and don't go too crazy with the fore-aft separation.

[Johnny]

For me the Prophets were the best boots I ever had. (Even if I have narrow feet!)
I even bought another pair two years ago because I was missing them...

But they are WAY too soft for my type of skiing... If Scott would make them stiffer (and add a 4th clip?), I sure would buy a pair...

[TomH]

They do work for some, as everyone has different feet, but I've come across more that couldn't get the boot to work for them than could. I really wanted to like them, as I like the feature set they have, but they were damn near unskiable for me, and I wasn't going to spend the time and money to try and make them work, and like you, wanted something a bit burlier. I'm in the green Crispi Evos which fit me awesome (and knew they would from my previous 75mm equipment). I just wish the walk mode didn't suck donkey balls.

[Harris]

IainAhh... Two things come to mind when I read your post. 1) if you have your bindings mounted aft of ski marked boot center, with NTN, they can act really screwy--as in fighting to not get back-seated onto the rear ski. A half inch can make a big difference in how the skis work for you. Some would say otherwise, but my experience would staunchly disagree. A lot of folks and techs, and even 22 Designs believe that aft of boot center is the way to go. It is an old school thing. I would check it and if it was mounted aft try mounting boot center; you can always go back. (boot center on NTN boots is figured by dividing the actual length of the boot sole in half, which is different than how boot center is found on duckbills). 2) if you are used to just "controlling" your rear ski rather than making it a functional part of the turn (i.e.) weighting it, then with NTN the binding lateral stiffness is working against your previous feel. NTN likes to be 2 ski turned.

I'm not sure that is what is going on, but it kinda sounds like the above mentioned might apply.

[Harris]

A little bit of an update.

I am using leashes at the moment so got some stainless steel D-links and sorted out the boots. I made up an aluminum bracket and used some slightly longer bolts. It worked good today.




A good ski day out today with my kids with a bit of fresh snow.
Review so far:
Outlaw bindings - No lateral movement, good and powerful. I got on a bit better today with centering myself on the new gear. Step-in is nice when you get used to the fact you just stamp on the binding to engage.

Scott the Ski - With a bit of power in the turn, goes round pretty good. Nice float in the soft stuff. I like the double side cut radius, you can do short turns pretty easy. The overall setup with width of ski and bindings is a bit heavier which is noticeable. They work better with a bit of speed.

Garmont Prophet Boots - I am not getting on great with these. I can get ok control with them clamped right up but it kills my feet and ankles after a while. Frustrating. Ok in parallel turns where it doesn't matter so much. But they feel loose in the forefoot in a tele turn. I guess this a known issue.

I wonder if the Scarpa or Crispi boots are better?

Nice McGiver work there! I once tested the Prophets (my old boots were Garas), but I felt they were too limited in the bellows for my taste. I'm a TX Pro guy. But every boot has its certain fit and rider needs/preferences. If it works for you then you have found the better boot.