How Steep is Steep?

[MikeK]

Assess your abilities.

I've been spending a fair deal of time on hillmap checking out things I have skied and things I want to ski.

Looked at lot of stuff I skied in my Alpine days at resorts - 25 degrees is about the steepest anything got where I skied with maybe a short blast up to 30 for not much more than 40-50' vert. This is all hard groomers. I recall some of those short 30s were killers, especially if they were in the middle of the run and icy. Starting off from a steep pitch and going to a lesser was easier. Realistically, I felt most comfortable less than 25 on piste.

Then I assessed a lot of stuff I've skied (and want to ski XCD). Honestly most of it falls right in the 15-20 degree range. I've skied some of this terrain with my S Bounds and in powder and it wasn't bad. I feel like the 10-15 degree range in powder isn't really enough to make turns necessary. That's about the range where I feel comfortable with some base, long skis and NNN. Also in corn or other faster snows, that's probably about my limit. I haven't tried but I'd guess with any of my XCD skis on piste I'd struggle above 15 deg.

I'll give it a shot next year, but if I can feel comfortable on those 25 deg groomer slopes with two buckle plastics and old-school tele skis, I'll consider it major progress.

[Cannatonic]

anything is possible! in the epic winter last year I took my old 200cm E99's down some little shots that were probably 45-50 degrees - maybe a half-dozen jump turns down some slope in a park. Was it pretty? No. More like survival. I"d prefer 25 degrees or less for nice tele turns with the weight back in a relaxed posture.

[MikeK]

Yeah I don't prefer anything that steep, it just doesn't do much for me, truth be told. I know how to use my edges and slip them or jump on them, but it's not what I want to ski.

I also don't want to do mach 1 or even mach 1/2 on bindings that aren't releasable with many obstacles hidden under the snow I don't know of and can't always see.

25 degrees at ski area... I'd honestly rather be on releasable bindings... more of a speed thing, but can skid my way down slowly... again not fun.

25 degree in bottomless powder - I might do a faceplant or two, but I'd go for it.

I've just found for me, for XCD, those pitches are the most comfortable and enjoyable. If it's a short, steep through the trees and I have a space to turn and maneuver below, I'll just shoot it. No sense in jumping around.

I guess it comes down to speed for me really. There is a speed limit I'm willing to crash at with long skis and these types of bindings. You can definitely hurt yourself even going slow if you twist right, I did a couple years back... twisted my knee bad. But it's a calculated risk.

[gfwp]

There is steep and steep.

On prepared hardpack 40-45 degree are accessible also with my Fischer Powerlight (46 mm underfoot) + skating boots

On a wet sticky unprepared slope at 15-20 degree it gets (almost) impossile, (for sure no fun) with the same gear.

And I have to admit that under really harsh conditions, fixed heel rules (but the fun is diminished)

Helvetic greetings

gfwp

[MikeK]

Man you guys are badass.

[EarlS]

I skied for several years on Madshus Epochs with NNNBC bindings and Alpina 2150 plastic/leather hybrid boots at the Lake Eldora ski resort in Colorado. The resort has an engineering report which lists the pitch of all their runs. The report says that slopes less than 5 degrees are "too flat for skiing"; green slopes have a maximum pitch in the range 5-15 degrees, blue slopes range from 15-25 degrees, black slopes are 25-35 degrees and anything over 35 degrees is "expert". With the Epochs I could do all the blue runs and a couple of the easiest blacks. However, it was always possible to traverse back and forth across the slope so I was never skiing down any of those angles; all I had to do was make a turn across the fall line and I could ski down at any angle that felt comfortable.
On trails, I find that a 5 degree slope on a narrow trail with trees close along the edges can be really steep if you have to go straight down for any distance. On my Glittertinds (old school teles) it would be hopeless. My Karhu GTs have enough torsional stiffness to permit doing a lot of stem braking to keep my speed down. My Madshus Epochs have a nice soft tip which permits an easy transition into soft snow alongside the trail; I can easily ski back and forth across the trail using the deeper snow on the edges (if there is any) to keep my speed down, or I can do parallel skids if the trail has been packed down by snowshoers; failing that I can always fall back on stem braking. I have used the Epochs to ski down hills in the 10-20 degree range if they are open enough to permit turning back and forth across the fall line, about the same as skiing blue slopes at a resort with a few inches of powder on the surface.
For steep trails in the 10 degree range I often wind up doing a long traverse through the woods back and forth across the trail. This usually involves skiing in deep snow. My Glittertinds are good for this because they have a soft flex and I can bend them into long radius stem-tele turns. My GTs are terrible because their stiff "camber and a half" makes them want to submarine in deep snow, looking for hidden branches that they can slide under, with predictable results. My Epochs are my favorite trail skis because their soft tips let them ride up in deep snow and they are easy to turn (for XCD skis) until the spring, when the snow in the woods starts to be deep and heavy.
Paradoxically my Glittertinds are my best touring ski for deep heavy snow because they are slow and predictable, and they climb far better than any of my other skis; its too bad that they are worse than terrible on a crusty trail. I use them only for "golf course" trails, prepared Nordic tracks, and for skiing in the woods with deep heavy snow.

[MikeK]

Paradoxically my Glittertinds are my best touring ski for deep heavy snow because they are slow and predictable, and they climb far better than any of my other skis

Interesting that you note that too. Johnny said the same thing long ago and I thought he was nuts. Then I tried it back to back with my Epoch and my Glitts. The Glitts grip better uphill.

I've never had good luck with the Glitts and mash potato snow. They just seem to want to go straight for me.

Yeah it seems everything out west is a bit steeper in terms of their ratings (probably because its a subjective system). Here in NY, it more like 5-13 is green, 14-18 is blue, 19-25 is black, double can be anything - either narrower and pitch more like a black or steeper and wider width or ungroomed (bumps). Any of those might have steeper pitches for short sections but the numbers I was quoting are usually over a couple hundred feet vert at least.

And yeah - 10 deg on a 3-4' wide trail for any length of time can be death. It's all relative.

[fisheater]

I myself prefer steeper terrain. I guess my gear reflects that. I bought a pair of leather boots and USGI skis, because they are a better reflection of what I normally ski in my local back country. What I prefer to ski is what would have a black diamond at the resort. At one recreation area that is close to my house is an open slope of about 200 feet vertical. It is referred to as the place where toboggans die. If there is snow, you will always see broken sleds and toboggans littering the bottom. If we get more than a foot, I will be there by first light to make SSS's across it if my schedule allows.

I don't believe the S-112 can be that much different from the S-98. I do know I turn much better with the hardwires attached, than on a three pin alone. While I have not skied the Alico Ski Marches yet, I believe I could turn the 112's with the hardwires attached competently. An active cable makes all the difference in the world. As long as I am talking about the S-112's, I will bring up my biggest complaint. The edges a too skinny! I am afraid to sharpen them as they are so thin, and never have. Those round edges did teach me to allow the ski to run and really angulate on my only northern MI resort skiing trip this year. I skied a Saturday at an abandoned resort, then Sunday at a resort. The surface was "granular", but it was ice underneath. We really do not have that in northern MI very often. The 112's were not confidence inspiring at first, but once I started letting them run and really angulating I found the bliss.

My local terrain consisting of small, but steep glacially deposited sand and gravel hills also has me thinking about a set of Hoks (thanks Lilcliffy). There are a lot of wooded hills that have trails leading to the top, that are too tight for me to ski. I think my 112's are an excellent powder ski, and I turn them well in powder, but the woods are still too tight. I will probably be pondering a set of Hoks all summer, because I like making turns on steeper terrain. I wouldn't feel bad about not K&G trails on the USGI's if I was skiing steep trees on Hoks!

Thanks for the thread Mike. I finally had a chance to write a little about something I know a bit about, and is near and dear to my heart. I also would have never known the pleasure of kicking and gliding, had I not started doing the K&G in search of turns.

[MikeK]

Hey Mr. Fish.

I bet you are right about the 112s vs the 98s. Probably not much difference in turning ability. I had the wide Madshus Annums and didn't care for them though. I prefer to have the lightest, longest ski I can bear. Johnny brainwashed me into lightness and lilcliffy brainwashed me into length.

I think the issue I'd have is going OTB on the steeps.

[Cannatonic]

Man you guys are badass.

no! I'm right with you at prefering 15-20 degrees. I can "descend" very steep sections, not even sure it could be called skiing. I'm sure you can do it too - just take the lightest pair of skis & boots you have on some spring snow, you'll be able to jump enough to swing the skis from one side to the other and check your speed. If you can jump in heavy hiking boots and turn your feet it will probably work with the skis.

for me the whole thing is cherry-picking conditions. In challenging snow I can't get the skis to work in very mellow pitches. The consolidated corn snow is much easier, you can experiment with steep "turns". Interesting to hear what other people are doing.