Telemark Talk / Telemark Tips Forum

This is, what I suppose is, part two of my other question, "What is the future of Telemark?" Seen as how that was so wildly popular and cool; I ask you this: What happens when the duckbill is no longer?

As I see it, NN/75mm/3 pin is getting ever-so tightly squeezed into a very, very small market. Most of those are ageing Telegeezers who's support will die off with them. I have nothing against Telegeezers or geezers in general, but it's a fact, and a fact I tried to enlighten us to in my last prose.

NNN isn't new. And it's completely taken over XC. I mean you can barely even buy a real pair of XC "shoes" anymore that are 3 pin. NTN isn't exactly a spring chicken either. With the licensing freedom, I expect it will continue to edge out those clinging onto the duckbill for turns.

Then we hit the weird middle ground. XCD. This is where the pin has hung on. But can it? I like pins just fine and could ski on them 100%, but there are advantages to NNN on the XC side of the fence - simply look at "XC" from the competitive aspect. Also, in regards to leather boots, NNN seems to be where the development is and it tends to show if you have actually tried them. Companies are still kicking along the 3 pin counterparts, but they seem to me to be somewhat of an afterthought of a boot that was developed for NNN.

On the plastic side of things, is the lack of the Excursion this year a sign of things to come? Or is it just a temporary hiccup with something new (or should I say, updated) coming out soon?

Will Rotte's dominance tell us we only have the choice of NTN (and all the tech variations) or NNN*? Or will NN come back (or stay rather)? And do we need it? With skis getting lighter and becoming easier to turn with each generation, will there be a need for the middle? Perhaps Rotte will license NNN-BC to someone else and they'll come up with a better, even more robust version like 22 Designs has done with NTN.

I'm actually not convinced the duckbill will be around much longer.




*This reminds of something one of my lbs guys said, "You can have one gear, or 11 gears, but nothing in between." While that's not exactly true, yet... it certainly is heading that way.

Ehh I'm not too worried. I think 75mm will still be around for a while with scarpa and crispi

I don't really follow a lot of what you're saying. there are so many flavours of nnn boots. the system works great for what's it built for, 75mm for track/xc skiing is just obsolete now. and has been for...decades??

still plenty of choices for a soft/leather 75mm boot, even lower cut xc models from alpina, crispi

it sounds you're just anti ntn? and honestly I think you're trying to hard to look to the future.

Sorry you read it that way. I'm not anti-NTN at all. I'm actually quite the opposite. I think it will wipe out 75mm altogether, just a matter of time. In my previous thread, I was speculating about who these new skiers are going to be on NTN.

I'm sorry, but the I know of the shoes you are talking about for XC. They are pretty bad and a very, very small portion of the market.

Look deep into the XCD boots I'm talking about. I've owned two pairs of the same boots in the both NNN and 3 pin version (Alaska and Svartisen) and in both cases, the NNN is a better boot. The 3 pin is OK, but it could be a lot better.

Just because Scarpa and Crispi make stuff now, doesn't mean they are going to keep making it. The only promising thing I've seen related to NN in recent years is Scarpa updating the T4. I don't think it's going to die overnight... but man, I'd say it's slowly fading away.

I wonder if NTN can survive the prowess of AT....

Don't get me wrong- I will always prefer the FEEL of a free heel no matter what. But the performance and advancements in AT vs. NTN?

75mm-NN remains the most versatile Nordic binding system available.

Often what is good for everything is not the best at anything.

The popularity of NNNBC in Northern Europe is simply a function of it offering the best performance for most of the backcountry touring that most skiers actually do (I actually believe that this is equally true of a lot of North American backcountry skiers as well. I meet a lot of off-trail skiers that have bought downhill-oriented gear, when they are actually xcountry skiing. Short, parabolic, waxless skis for xcountry skiing?!).

So- the irony is that NNNBC can seem like a "niche" market to a XCD backcountry skier that appreciates the versatility of 75mm-NN; when in fact it is the oppposite- most backcountry Nordic skiers- on a global scale- are backcountry-xcountry skiers first. As an example, the traditional Norwegian "fjellski" (i.e. "mountain ski") is still a xcountry ski first and foremost.

I think that the survival of 75mm-NN lies in the outcome of the battle for big-mountain downhill skiing supremacy. If 75mm-NN cannot win against NTN or AT, then you may be right Mike- it may fall...

and as LJ boldly keeps re-assuring me that I am not alone...

The big secret is that on the truly "light" end of things- "XCD" in the purest sense- NNNBC offers as good- or better- downhill performance than plain-jane 3-pin-NN. This may not be a secret in Fennoscandia- but if enough XCD skiers realize this in North America- 75mm will be pushed into an even narrower niche.

The current Fischer Nordic Backcountry/S-Bound boot lineup may illustrate what you are getting at on the light XCD end of things...
https://www.fischersports.com/ca_en/nor ... ry-s-bound

Is the Fischer BCX8 boot no more? Was the Fischer BCX8 the last dedicated 75mm XCD boot that Fischer will ever make?

The Fischer BCX6-NNNBC is now Fischer's premier XCD boot? Fischer still makes the BCX675- but let's face it- the BCX675 sucks compared to the NNNBC version (just like the Rossi BCx6 vs. BCX675).

This reviewer suggests that the Fischer BCX6-NNNBC is too MUCH power for a ski like the S-78:
http://www.gearinstitute.com/skiing/ite ... m-bindings

lilcliffy wrote:This reviewer suggests that the Fischer BCX6-NNNBC is too MUCH power for a ski like the S-78:

I think the same about my NNN Alaskas... They are super fun for downhill, but way too powerfull (stiff) for K&G... I will completely remove the flexors on my pure XC NNN setups this winter...

LoveJohnny wrote:

lilcliffy wrote:This reviewer suggests that the Fischer BCX6-NNNBC is too MUCH power for a ski like the S-78:

I think the same about my NNN Alaskas... They are super fun for downhill, but way too powerfull (stiff) for K&G... I will completely remove the flexors on my pure XC NNN setups this winter...

You just need a boot that fits you right

That reviewer is probably correct. You don't need much boot for the S78.

I guess low power boots are fine if you're only K&G but I think worthless for any actual XCD on the 78s. I originally used my 78s w Rossi BCX 10 NNN, (great boot) and then put pins on them and now drive them with my Antarctics. I will certainly take the Antarctics and the pins over the NNNBC any day for any kind of downhill control on such a low sidecut ski. That's me, spoken as a lapsed ATer that has left that fixed heel world behind. If someone is just K&Ging on the 78s they should be on the 99s anyway, no m sain''?

That makes me think: Pins make transitioning skiers less helpless on the DH. There's a reason to keep the pins. And they are affordable.