Starting this thread rather than going too far off topic in the S-98 review thread. Being new to XCD (and anything remotely nordic in general) I have questions about maintaining and tuning metal edged and especially waxless skis like the S-98.
1. Do you hot wax and what's your approach? I presume that hot waxing the sintered portions of the bases with an all purpose wax (steering clear of the scales) and then applying a layer of temp-specific wax or glide wax (f4 or similar) over the entire base, scales and all, is a decent approach. Everyone has their own recipe for waxing, of course.
2. How do you treat your edges in terms of base and side angles? Similar to alpine (e.g. base angle of 1 degree and edge angle of 88 or 89 degrees is the conventional starting point) or something else? Are 0 or 0.5 degree base angles preferable to help fatter skis track straight during kick and glide? I understand some resort-oriented telemarkers tend to have different base angles at the tips/tails than they do underfoot.
3. How much do you worry about and how do you deal with base flatness? And related to that, how do you approach base repairs? Especially pertaining to waxless skis this seems to require a more careful hands-on approach. I can only logically assume hand flattening (using metal scrapers and/or hand flatteners like the SkiVisions tool) is the viable approach, rather than machine grinding.
Edit: aw shit, I just saw lilcliffy's thread. Ignore question #1.
XCD Ski Maintenance
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MikeK
Re: XCD Ski Maintenance
I've actually never heard of anyone treating the edges for metal-edged XC skis. If you ski on hardpack it's probably important, if you ski off-piste you are going to ding the shit out of them anyway, and they don't really do anything on soft snow, except maybe like corn or granular melted type stuff. If you have the displeasure of actually skiing on icy ungroomed... well... uhh, you'll likely just be scratching along at a snails pace, so edge angle won't matter much.
The Fischer edges are thin - I wouldn't cut them again unless absolutely necessary. One cut and I think they'd probably be done. Just clean them off with a soft gummi stone to keep the rust off. Don't go too hard or you will start to dull them a bit. You may actually wind up wanting to detune the tips and tails on the S Bound as they are grabby on hard snow out of the box IMO. I'd say the steel isn't the greatest and with some rusting and gummi stoning, they are going to detune themselves rather quickly... at least mine did. I'd also say clean up any burrs you get from rocks (you'll hit them, they hide everywhere and you'll be tempted to ski when it's thin) just to keep any stress concentrations from developing. The edges add strength to the ski, they are kind of your first line of defense for the soft underbelly.
As far as bases - I just beat the shit out of mine, brush them and wax them and brush them again. The wax will smooth them a bit. Any big gouges or core shots... you might want to fix just to keep the wood core sealed. I'd imagine scratches and stuff affect your glide, but I've never worried about it. If you get going fast enough and hit something hard enough to really take out a chunk of Ptex, well... you might want to rethink your strategy. Alpine skiing is generally a lot faster and a lot more abusive in terms of g's and all that. Sure you could whack a rock at low speed and destroy your skis, but most likely you'll feel it and lift up over it. I glide over plenty of scratchy nasties and I've yet to get anything more than a mm or so deep.
Just another note on the wax thing. You can just use a rub-on paste like F4 and never hot wax the skis but I don't recommend that. I did it for a while on one pair and the bases eventually dried out. I also paste waxed them religiously, but that stuff just doesn't really penetrate. I had a hell of a time trying to get them to absorb wax again after that. Now I just use cheap hydrocarbon wax, universal temp works fine, but you can just pick a middle temp and it will probably work fine too. If you get fancy and get a couple different pairs of skis you may want to wax one warm and one cold, and use based on conditions. This is my strategy these days. I don't know if it really makes a lick of difference, but wax in general really does help (it's not a myth IMO).
You can also wax the scales. I don't recommend it often, but I've done it. Helps to brush them out while the wax is still warm to get most of it out of there, and then do the tedious task of fine cleaning. The Fischers have a different material for the waxless pattern. I have no idea what the deal with it is, but it doesn't seem to dry out and it doesn't seem to really absorb wax. I still rub paste on it, but I'm not sure you actually need to or that it actually does anything. It feels really hard and non-porous, but the glide portions of the bases take wax well.
Maybe someone, someday will enlighten us on the Fischer scale plastic... but for now I just put stuff on there to make myself feel good.
The Fischer edges are thin - I wouldn't cut them again unless absolutely necessary. One cut and I think they'd probably be done. Just clean them off with a soft gummi stone to keep the rust off. Don't go too hard or you will start to dull them a bit. You may actually wind up wanting to detune the tips and tails on the S Bound as they are grabby on hard snow out of the box IMO. I'd say the steel isn't the greatest and with some rusting and gummi stoning, they are going to detune themselves rather quickly... at least mine did. I'd also say clean up any burrs you get from rocks (you'll hit them, they hide everywhere and you'll be tempted to ski when it's thin) just to keep any stress concentrations from developing. The edges add strength to the ski, they are kind of your first line of defense for the soft underbelly.
As far as bases - I just beat the shit out of mine, brush them and wax them and brush them again. The wax will smooth them a bit. Any big gouges or core shots... you might want to fix just to keep the wood core sealed. I'd imagine scratches and stuff affect your glide, but I've never worried about it. If you get going fast enough and hit something hard enough to really take out a chunk of Ptex, well... you might want to rethink your strategy. Alpine skiing is generally a lot faster and a lot more abusive in terms of g's and all that. Sure you could whack a rock at low speed and destroy your skis, but most likely you'll feel it and lift up over it. I glide over plenty of scratchy nasties and I've yet to get anything more than a mm or so deep.
Just another note on the wax thing. You can just use a rub-on paste like F4 and never hot wax the skis but I don't recommend that. I did it for a while on one pair and the bases eventually dried out. I also paste waxed them religiously, but that stuff just doesn't really penetrate. I had a hell of a time trying to get them to absorb wax again after that. Now I just use cheap hydrocarbon wax, universal temp works fine, but you can just pick a middle temp and it will probably work fine too. If you get fancy and get a couple different pairs of skis you may want to wax one warm and one cold, and use based on conditions. This is my strategy these days. I don't know if it really makes a lick of difference, but wax in general really does help (it's not a myth IMO).
You can also wax the scales. I don't recommend it often, but I've done it. Helps to brush them out while the wax is still warm to get most of it out of there, and then do the tedious task of fine cleaning. The Fischers have a different material for the waxless pattern. I have no idea what the deal with it is, but it doesn't seem to dry out and it doesn't seem to really absorb wax. I still rub paste on it, but I'm not sure you actually need to or that it actually does anything. It feels really hard and non-porous, but the glide portions of the bases take wax well.
Maybe someone, someday will enlighten us on the Fischer scale plastic... but for now I just put stuff on there to make myself feel good.
Re: XCD Ski Maintenance
Waxing waxless fish scales, I just used this guy's trick and it worked fairly well on a pair of Koms. Smooth the wax on with the iron in small sections and while still liquid-y, wipe off with a paper towel. Then, as Mike said, brush it out as much as possible before it totally solidifies. I had much better glide and didn't notice any reduction in traction.
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fisheater
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Re: XCD Ski Maintenance
LoFi, that was very cool. I would have never figured that out, but it is so simple!
Thank you for sharing,
Bob
Thank you for sharing,
Bob
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Woodserson
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Re: XCD Ski Maintenance
I agree with Mike, the Fischer pattern, if you have the newer white "offtrack crown" scales, don't really need anything nor do they accept anything. I paste wax those depending on conditions if I think icing is going to be an issue on a particular day, but I don't hot wax them.
I'd use Lo-Fi's above technique if the scales were the same material as the base, and I mean a high-quality sintered base, like Madshus, Altai, etc, where the sintered base is formed into the scales. The older negative Fischer pattern also would be a candidate.
Additionally, +1 on detuning the S-Bounds. Anything that I'm not using to go straight gets detuned on the tips and tails. YMMV.
I'd use Lo-Fi's above technique if the scales were the same material as the base, and I mean a high-quality sintered base, like Madshus, Altai, etc, where the sintered base is formed into the scales. The older negative Fischer pattern also would be a candidate.
Additionally, +1 on detuning the S-Bounds. Anything that I'm not using to go straight gets detuned on the tips and tails. YMMV.
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mugglesport
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:04 pm
- Location: Wisconsin
Re: XCD Ski Maintenance
Thanks for the replies. This season my use of these skis is probably going to primarily occur along ungroomed ski/snowshoe/fatbike trails and messing around on the groomed ski club rope tow hill while the kids are taking lessons.
Regarding edges...what you're saying about relative importance compared to alpine makes a lot of sense, but I am still curious if there's an ideal range of angles for more downhill-oriented xcD that won't make the skis perform poorly during K&G. But maybe everyone just goes with whatever the skis come with from the factory...
I haven't fondled my new skis enough to know how much edge material they have. I don't really plan on lots of edge tuning, but I think that especially with the very small amount of edge material that you say XCD skis have, it would be all the more important to keep them in top shape and remove as little material as possible. So avoid the files, and gummy stone regularly...but also maybe polish with fine stones set at the correct angle (to avoid detuning underfoot) more often than you might with alpine skis.
I'm sure I'm overthinking this, but what else am I to do until we get some snow?
Regarding edges...what you're saying about relative importance compared to alpine makes a lot of sense, but I am still curious if there's an ideal range of angles for more downhill-oriented xcD that won't make the skis perform poorly during K&G. But maybe everyone just goes with whatever the skis come with from the factory...
I haven't fondled my new skis enough to know how much edge material they have. I don't really plan on lots of edge tuning, but I think that especially with the very small amount of edge material that you say XCD skis have, it would be all the more important to keep them in top shape and remove as little material as possible. So avoid the files, and gummy stone regularly...but also maybe polish with fine stones set at the correct angle (to avoid detuning underfoot) more often than you might with alpine skis.
I'm sure I'm overthinking this, but what else am I to do until we get some snow?
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MikeK
Re: XCD Ski Maintenance
There probably is some messing about to do, but it's hard to say what will work with playing around. I've just adapted (the best I can) to what they come with (might all be different too?).
Some skis have a lot more edge meat than the Fischers, it's really just the current S Bounds that I know of having a really thin edge. Some of the others i.e. Madshus/Karhu aren't all that thick, but they are probably enough to do some filing. If you had a pair of Asnes, then I'd say for sure you could mess with them, because they have really thick edges. I also do not think they are 0/90, and they are damn sharp from the factory, unlike any other new ski I've bought.
Tuning is cool, but I don't know if it the best thing to do now... maybe wait until you've skied them and bit and try some stuff.
Right now I would say get really comfortable with them. Fondle them. Talk to them. Wear them around the house. Take them to bed with you. FEEEEEEEEL what they want.
Then when it comes time to ski, you'll be ready. And then you'll fall
Hey - how did you make on the boot front?
Some skis have a lot more edge meat than the Fischers, it's really just the current S Bounds that I know of having a really thin edge. Some of the others i.e. Madshus/Karhu aren't all that thick, but they are probably enough to do some filing. If you had a pair of Asnes, then I'd say for sure you could mess with them, because they have really thick edges. I also do not think they are 0/90, and they are damn sharp from the factory, unlike any other new ski I've bought.
Tuning is cool, but I don't know if it the best thing to do now... maybe wait until you've skied them and bit and try some stuff.
Right now I would say get really comfortable with them. Fondle them. Talk to them. Wear them around the house. Take them to bed with you. FEEEEEEEEL what they want.
Then when it comes time to ski, you'll be ready. And then you'll fall
Hey - how did you make on the boot front?
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mugglesport
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:04 pm
- Location: Wisconsin
Re: XCD Ski Maintenance
I bought those Garmont Libero boots off of Satsuma. The shells fit well, but the liner is a little tight in the toe. I need to perform some hair dryer/box cutter surgery on them to stretch the toebox a bit. That way I can see if I like them and then maybe get new liners.
I also picked up a free pair of Alico leathers at my ski club's swap. They have a bit of rust on the eyelets, but generally appear unused. Can't tell much about them, but they have yellow laces, which (assuming original laces) seems to mean they're somewhat old.
I also picked up a free pair of Alico leathers at my ski club's swap. They have a bit of rust on the eyelets, but generally appear unused. Can't tell much about them, but they have yellow laces, which (assuming original laces) seems to mean they're somewhat old.
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MikeK
Re: XCD Ski Maintenance
I finally got around to tuning my Tuas. I decided I can't figure out edge angle with the blocks I have, I'd need a gauge set.
I also kind of decided it seems futile to try to tune edges on waxless skis... at least with the kit I have, which is a borrowed Swix racing setup. It wouldn't work very well.
I decided upon this: I'd leave the base angle - no idea what it is but I don't think there is a good way to file or re-cut it with a positive scale pattern. The side angle you might be able to do. What I thought of was layered something flat over the scales, like a thin piece of rigid plastic and clamping that in place. That would give you a decent (I don't know if it would be good enough) guide to true up the sides. I wouldn't re-cut them, I'd say gage them or have a shop do it for you (it will take them 2 secs) and use an L-bracket guide. The one I'm using it the roller type, and I don't thin that would work as well... just a hunch.
You could try those little plastic edgers than Swix makes to give a quick sharpen, but I'm not sure they are very good.
http://www.racewax.com/base-side-bevel- ... dger-tool/
I also kind of decided it seems futile to try to tune edges on waxless skis... at least with the kit I have, which is a borrowed Swix racing setup. It wouldn't work very well.
I decided upon this: I'd leave the base angle - no idea what it is but I don't think there is a good way to file or re-cut it with a positive scale pattern. The side angle you might be able to do. What I thought of was layered something flat over the scales, like a thin piece of rigid plastic and clamping that in place. That would give you a decent (I don't know if it would be good enough) guide to true up the sides. I wouldn't re-cut them, I'd say gage them or have a shop do it for you (it will take them 2 secs) and use an L-bracket guide. The one I'm using it the roller type, and I don't thin that would work as well... just a hunch.
You could try those little plastic edgers than Swix makes to give a quick sharpen, but I'm not sure they are very good.
http://www.racewax.com/base-side-bevel- ... dger-tool/
Re: XCD Ski Maintenance
I haven't had great luck with that plastic edging tool. Even on negative pattern bases it kinda bumps along the scales and doesn't cut very well. I've just been using a big ol' hand file resting lengthwise on the edge.