"The Bleeding Edge" of boot progress...

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mainer
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"The Bleeding Edge" of boot progress...

Post by mainer » Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:24 pm

Not sure who has seen this yet....

http://www.telemarkskier.com/pierre-pie ... mark-boot/

"Their only real flaw is they don’t tele for squat. Not. At. All."

I guess it is something that someone is thinking of tele skiers, just not the Turn.

MikeK

Re: "The Bleeding Edge" of boot progress...

Post by MikeK » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:00 pm

I knew it was only a matter of time (and yes, I'd seen this).

Really, think of this: It's not hard to do carbon fiber layups with minimal tooling. Formula SAE teams at pretty much any engineering school have been doing it for years. This just being a bunch of college students with access to a machine shop.

Making big, heavy, plastic boots is hard, and expensive. But once you have the tooling, it's cheaper overall. For small production, cottage industry, CF is not as bad as you might think (again, I can point to many, many cottage industries using CF).

Liners are easily available.

The only issue is that pesky bellows, and the perhaps the sole itself. And it looks like they kind of cobbled that bit together.

I'm sure there's a lot of mechanics to actually figure out to get a Tele boot to feel good. But good to who? The guy giving the reviews? There's like 5 people out there that would actually buy this thing and only 1 who will actually like it...

If I had any kind of motivation or faith in the ski industry I'd team up with a few other engineers and get a startup going and design shit like this, but honestly, y'all are too sketchy for me. And what is the motivation? To serve a few diehards who refuse to go to AT? Why does it need to be lighter? Are you guys racing? And do I really think tech toes are good idea? No... they look like the most flimsy, fiddly mech I've ever seen (this, just my professional engineering opinion) and I wouldn't waste my time with it unless it was for racing, for which they are clearly superior.

If I were you, I'd thank your lucky stars there are companies like Scarpa and 22 Designs even making decent, reliable, robust stuff at the forefront of Tele. And guess what, that shit still breaks. You want something that has more complex loading with more degrees of freedom than AT and you want it as light... and you don't want to break... good luck...

And PS, I wouldn't hold my breath for an 75mm versions of this stuff... just sayin'...

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Re: "The Bleeding Edge" of boot progress...

Post by mainer » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:47 pm

MikeK wrote: And do I really think tech toes are good idea? No... they look like the most flimsy, fiddly mech I've ever seen
I've tried to have that conversation with people who ski Meidjos.... Dynafit toes were NOT designed to take the forces generated by a tele turn. Tour good, yes. Inspire confidence for tele, no.

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Re: "The Bleeding Edge" of boot progress...

Post by lowangle al » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:07 pm

That's great, the perfect tele boot that won't fit my bindings. :cry:

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Re: "The Bleeding Edge" of boot progress...

Post by lowangle al » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:18 pm

MikeK wrote:f I had any kind of motivation or faith in the ski industry I'd team up with a few other engineers and get a startup going and design shit like this, but honestly, y'all are too sketchy for me. And what is the motivation? To serve a few diehards who refuse to go to AT? Why does it need to be lighter? Are you guys racing? And do I really think tech toes are good idea? No... they look like the most flimsy, fiddly mech I've ever seen (this, just my professional engineering opinion) and I wouldn't waste my time with it unless it was for racing, for which they are clearly superior.
Maybe it's the Holy Grail and they are going after the XCD market. Light for touring and superior for downhill performance. Tele is going back to its roots, one ski does it all except for the addition of some dedicated powder boards.

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Re: "The Bleeding Edge" of boot progress...

Post by iBjorn » Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:55 am

It s the first progress in tele boots for +20 years (except for the switch to duckbutt instead of duckbill 10 years ago). Now when Scarpa also seems to be moving forward its good with Pierre & Pierre raising the bar.

I do agree that tele needs to go back to its root, one ski, one binding and one boot to rule it all. However, I do have some concerns about binding systems. NTN is too heavy and complicated and the current BC-bindings is too weak and flimsy. IMHO, the best option out there is still 75mm.

Still dreaming about a duckbilled version of the old Scarpa carbon F1....

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Re: "The Bleeding Edge" of boot progress...

Post by iBjorn » Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:57 am

MikeK wrote:Are you guys racing?
Yes

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Re: "The Bleeding Edge" of boot progress...

Post by iBjorn » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:14 am

More pictures here: https://www.friflyt.no/Ski/Telemarkstoevel-paa-700-gram

The article (in norwegian) states: they (Pierrre & Pierre) are working to get this boot to the market. They also state that Scarpa have confirmed that they a working on a new touring oriented light-weight tele boot. And that Scarpa may show a prototype of it this year!

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Re: "The Bleeding Edge" of boot progress...

Post by mainer » Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:37 am

iBjorn wrote:They also state that Scarpa have confirmed that they a working on a new touring oriented light-weight tele boot. And that Scarpa may show a prototype of it this year!
That is exciting news. I know quite a few people who have been longing for such a boot.
Something like the Maestrale or F1 (in terms of weight and cuff mobility) would be amazing.

MikeK

Re: "The Bleeding Edge" of boot progress...

Post by MikeK » Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:51 am

iBjorn - I understand you are racing Skimo with Tele gear. I've read your posts.

The question is more rhetorical. Are the people wanting these boots racing? Are there enough people racing in Skimo events with a free heel to make a good business case to make this stuff for the ones who aren't racing?

Honestly I know very little about Skimo, but I do keep up with the "modern" Tele equipment. Why? In case one day I decide it is a good idea to buy it, or improve upon it. But for now, I don't see the point.

If I bought a NTN setup, it surely wouldn't be with tech toes and it would purely be for lift served.

Honestly, just thinking off the cuff it wouldn't be hard for Scarpa to take a lot of weight out of the T2 by changing the buckle design and adding carbon inserts into the shell. Would people buy a $1000 T2 though? I wouldn't, even if I was using it as a touring boot. I thought $500 was kind of ridiculous.

I'm almost SURE people would buy $1000-1500 NTN boots. Even so, that portion of the market is pretty small IMHO.

And again, it comes to the problem of Telemarkers... 5 guys want to buy it and 1 actually will, and like it. The rest will hate it for one reason or another and go back to the heavy boots of yore.


We all know there is A BIG gap between leather XCD and plastic Lite Tele, but it's not one that is easy to fill, and I don't think those skiers are willing to pay the big money it would take to push that into the next era. Most people won't pay $300 for a modern, tech leather and there is a big difference in touring, dh performance and weight between that boot and the next step, which would be T4/Excursion.

As I envision it, to really fill that void one would have to take a lot of mass out of the boot, keep that level of dh performance and develop the sole/bellows system that could provide a better range of motion in the forefoot. And perhaps even the 75mm interface is not ideal because it relies on the duckbill material for its torsional stiffness and bending (which are conflicting for tours and turns). Really some hybrid of NNN and 75mm would be in order.

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