Greetings from another XCDing Michigander

[Blackbeard Ben]

I've lurked for quote some time around here, but I figured now is as good a time as any to introduce myself. I know there's a few of you out there (fisheater, t-$, aquamogal, maybe some others) in Michigan - hopefully enjoying the little bit of snow we've had so far this winter. Maybe there will be a chance to meet at some point in the future.

I'm more of a weekend warrior than anything else, as I'm usually busy riding bikes (even in the winter, though on a studded plus bike instead of a fat bike, as there's not enough snow to really justify it living in Davison). I still love to ski, so I have to split my time in the winter. I've been backcountry skiing on hiking and mountain bike trails for the better part of 15 years (due to lack of anything else accessible), often going down slopes where all I could do was 'survival ski'. Until a couple years ago I was making do with old Spalding touring skis (205mm long, 60/50/55 mm, no metal edge, worn out old-school sawtooth waxless pattern, and [of course] 75 mm NN bindings on floppy boots).

Invariably here in lower Michigan, we always seem to end up on icy, barely snow covered singletrack trails with lots of short but steep climbs and descents, usually with difficult-to-negotiate tight corners and plenty of roots which make climbing difficult. Those were nearly impossible to negotiate on my old skis. Now I have a set of Alpina Discovery 68 skis with NNN-BC Magnum bindings and Alpina Outlander boots (thanks to the XC HQ here in Rosscommon, which is a great place but lacking in XCD knowledge and gear - no 75 mm anything to be found). The Alpinas make a big difference, and the boot/binding combination give me much more control (I know that it could be improved with stiffer boots), but I still struggle on the steeper stuff.

Now, I'm sure my skill level (and xcD-focused gear) has a lot to do with this. I'm plenty capable of basic step and plow turns, and have been getting better at stem christie and telemark turns (but I'm not fully capable of either in all conditions yet - I need more practice). Still, many of the trails I know here are so short, tight, and with inadequate snow that I struggle to negotiate them at all. By this I mean turns so tight that you basically have to step turn at speed, one ski over the other, to make it. My short legs do not help this. I'm 5'11" and about 205 lb (working on that), but I only have a 30" inseam. So I've got great lung capacity, but stubby legs seem to make negotiating rough terrain more difficult than it would otherwise be.

I hate to turn this into a question right away, but does anyone else have any experience with this (tight trails and/or short legs vs. weight)?

An inexperienced friend of mine has a pair of Altai Hoks, which he found extremely easy to pick up and go on. Thanks to the skins and short length, he makes it up steep, rooted climbs more suitable to snowshoes easily where I struggle, and the skins and short, wide profile make downhills easy for him in comparison. However, they're very slow everywhere else as everyone here knows.

I'm inclined to keep practicing - maybe on a groomed hill, Norpine style, to get more experience. I also have a set of full-length strap on skins that I have yet to try, which should help.

But I can't help but wonder if the terrain I'm often on (varying from the Holdridge West Loop near Holly, to the Waterloo-Pinckney trail, to Gorge-ous in Marquette) is better suited to something more along the lines of the Hoks.

I'm not sure if going that far to the other end of the ski spectrum is really the answer, but there's not a lot of in-between options. The impossible-to-get OAC XCD skis look like they could be perfect, with skins and short lengths, but not so wide to completely sacrifice glide on the flats (and to be easier to control with a softer boot). I also think about getting something like the Fischer S-Bound 98 with easy skins, or even an already short ski like the Alpina Discovery 102, and sizing them down a length (i.e. get the 168 instead of 178). Is that crazy? I know it goes against traditional sizing logic, but in this sort of terrain I think the ability to move the skis around, and better engagement of the grip pattern, might be more important.

I don't expect a 'quiver-killer' ski - but what I'm hoping for is being able to more easily negotiate the sort of trail terrain we have in Michigan, but still perform in a pinch when covering distances. For flatter stuff, I have no problems with standard backcountry gear.

Anyway, enough about my needy problems - I'm glad to be here and to be slowly becoming a part of the telemark community! I'm sure before long you'll have me wanting to be on 3-pin and cable bindings on some real xcD-oriented skis!

[fisheater]

Blackbeard welcome aboard! ( yes I was trying to be a little silly)
Ben, I am not quite sure about the Holly Recreation trails, there are many other trails I much prefer.
There is a large trail network at independence Oaks County Park. I realize you are a non-resident, I fish Holloway Reservoir, my buddy prefers the county launch, so I feel your pain as I am an Oakland County resident. The thing about Independence Oaks is that the trails are gravel paved, so they ski with 4”. They are also wide, two track width trails. There are flat trails, and there are hilly trails. There is even a sign showing a “hill bypass”. So it’s wide, extensive, and as challenging as you want.
When we have more snow, Bald Mountain Recreation North Unit offers 7 miles of loop with a half way bail point. It is hilly and fast! The turns are carved in by bikes, let the skis run a bit, you can wedge around the banked turns. Bald Mountain needs 8” to fill in, although there will still be some cobble to avoid.The Pontiac Lake Recreation Area’s mountain bike trail is about 10 miles, no bail, hills are a bit bigger, so are the banked turns!. Highland Lakes is hilly, but suffers from downhills ending in a hairpin uphill deal, still I much prefer it to Holly Rec.
Up in Marquette, I had a lot of fun at Blueberry Hill Cross Country trails. It has rolling fun hills, if you don’t like where you ski up there that is one of many choices.
You can help your skis climb better by using Swix Polar (white). Use it in a glide wax, and apply it to the scales as well.
I order my kick wax from these guys in Grayling, MI
http://www.xcskishop.com/

I also have ordered from these guys. They have a huge selection.
https://www.pioneermidwest.com/

There are a lot of good trails. Kick waxing your waxless ski will help it climb better. I buy my skis through the mail, however if you want backcountry gear in person there are shops in Marquette.

Hoping for at least 4” by Sunday morning. I’ll probably be out at Independence Oaks Sunday morning.

[Blackbeard Ben]

fisheater,

Thanks for the response!

Since I'm a little further north than you, my trail selection is a little different. I go to Holdridge in part because it's close and I'm familiar with it, but also because it's open 24/7, which is nice in the winter when I get out of work after dark. The North loop is good but short and flat, the West loop is quite tough, and I think the East loop would require some seriously good skills to negotiate. It's similar to the toughest stuff Highland has to offer, with most downhills ending in hairpins (often going right down the fall line), and then heading straight back up. I haven't ever tried the regular Holly trails east of I-75 before, but I understand they're much easier.

I also ride occasionally at Ortonville Rec Area Bloomer #3, though I haven't skied that. There are a some steep hills there I would struggle with going down safely.

Independence Oaks wasn't even on my radar - I forgot it existed since it doesn't have mountain bike trails. I might have to go check that out.

I'm familiar with Bald Mountain, and have ridden there several times before. I know what you mean about hilly and fast - and it's wide open compared to most of the other singletrack. I think but can't confirm that those trails were built specifically for XC skiing. These would be a lot of fun for me to ski, I suspect.

Pontiac Lakes and Highland - I haven't ridden there in years (usually skipping them for more fun trails to ride) - but I imagine the downhill sections would be quite difficult.

Blueberry Ridge Pathway in Marquette sounds like a good option - I think we passed it up to go to the lit trail at Al Quaal last winter. That was a ton of fun - and has long, steep, and wide enough downhills to carve corners on.

Thanks for the tip about the polar kick wax - so you're using it on the whole ski instead of glide wax? So at the higher temperatures we normally experience, it works well in that role?

I normally put glide wax on the whole ski, scales included - but being careful not to apply it backwards across the scales.

Funny, I've been to Northbound Outfitters (the xcskishop.com guys) plenty of times before (I always went in summer after riding at Hanson Hills), but I never knew they carried that much BC XC stuff! They have a way better selection of that than XC HQ. I might have to check them out in-season. They seem like the ones to go to for 3-pin bindings.

I suppose it's kind of a moot question at this point in the season with skis sold out everywhere, but what do you think about sizing down for skis on the rougher trails? Is that something I should consider, or should I just focus on building my BC skills?

[fisheater]

Ben, yes I use the Polar on the entire ski as a glide wax. It will improve grip on the scales as well. You will need to strip the glide wax for the grip wax to adhere to the base. Goo-gone is readily available and is a fine wax stripping solution.
I think it is easier to learn to turn on groomed snow, at least to begin. I don’t recommend going to the local downhill resorts. Ogemaw Hills pathway in West Branch is groomed, rated green, blue, black. They have snow now! I might do a day trip out there just because I want to slide. I am pasting a movie just posted by French Fred in the Equipment Reviews forum.

There are some drills that you would need to adapt to a narrow XC trail, but helpful none the less.
I do not recommend a shorter ski than what is recommended for your weight. However there are skis with more side cut and Nordic rocker that are made to turn. Two examples would be the Alpina Discovery 102 and the Fischer S-bound 98. I have an S-bound 112, but it is mounted 75 mm (3-pin), otherwise I could let you try that. A double cambered ski like your Discovery 62 (despite being a softer double cambered) does not want to bend. They don’t turn like a ski which is a camber and a half like the two skis I mentioned. However and this may sound contradictory your Discovery 62 does have a soft shovel and tip section that should help with step turning. For a double cambered ski, you should be able to work on your turns with that ski. The difficulty is that it would be easier if you knew the sensation of making a Telemark turn with a more turn oriented ski. Then your ski would be easy to handle. However a shorter version is just slower, without being significantLy easier to turn.

Edit: I do have a US 10 Leather Ski March 75 mm boot that you could use if I met you or an ancient aTelebreeze 75 mm boot that fits my size 11 foot, but my buddy had this for years and he is a 12.
So if you want to try the S-112 I could make arrangements. That is if you could fit one of those boots

[Blackbeard Ben]

fisheater,

Thanks once again for the detailed advice and clarification. I'll have to get some of the Polar wax and give that a try.

I'll be spending some time learning waxing in detail now anyway, as I finally got some bindings mounted on my Asnes USGI skis. I've never done kick waxing before. I got those knowing they were more for XC long distance in deep snow though, so I don't expect to do much turning with them.

Ogemaw Hills is a relatively short drive for me at just over 1.5 hours, so it's well within my weekend day trip range. I'll have to give it a go soon. I didn't get a chance over the holidays, but I did make it to a number of other trails - mostly less challenging, and all (except at XC Ski HQ) heavily trafficked by foot and/or fat bikes.

I'd love to try a wider, higher sidecut, softer ski before I buy - my Alpina boots are a 45, and I typically fit around a 10.5 or so. Your boots might work for me. So that's definitely an option. We'll have to see - my girlfriend might kill me if she hears me talking about getting another pair of skis!

[FourthCoast]

I've lurked for quote some time around here, but I figured now is as good a time as any to introduce myself. I know
Invariably here in lower Michigan, we always seem to end up on icy, barely snow covered singletrack trails with lots of short but steep climbs and descents, usually with difficult-to-negotiate tight corners and plenty of roots which make climbing difficult.
(...)
An inexperienced friend of mine has a pair of Altai Hoks, which he found extremely easy to pick up and go on. Thanks to the skins and short length, he makes it up steep, rooted climbs more suitable to snowshoes easily where I struggle, and the skins and short, wide profile make downhills easy for him in comparison. However, they're very slow everywhere else as everyone here knows.

I'm sure before long you'll have me wanting to be on 3-pin and cable bindings on some real xcD-oriented skis!

Hi Blackbear,

Good to see that someone else is attempting to ski on tree roots with some ice on top of them. Makes me feel a little less insane. I am in lower Western Michigan myself. It can be a lot of fun right after a big lake effect snow dump. But the way this winter is going and the way the last two went I am starting to think maybe the climate is not what it used to be. Lots of rain.

I am skiing on some old Scarpa T2s, Riva II Cable bindings and K2 Heli Stinx. I seem to find it more fun to ski on cheap (or free!) old equipment. I am not sure why.

But I am happy to buy new gear for my family. This year my wife got new Alpina Discovery 68 (fishscales) skis with Rottefella NNN BC bindings and Rossignol BC X5 boots. My daughter now has Balla Hok skis with the the universal binding.

We managed to get out twice so far before the snow melted.

Both my wife and daughter had a much easier time going up hill with their gear than I did with my skis waxed tip to tail as described in "LilCliffy's Nordic Backcountry Touring Waxing". As you said the skins on the Hok skis are really good for climbing. On the down hill I would glide right past both of them.

My daughter was able to snow plow and at one point said something like, "I though it would be hard but it is just like downhill skiing!". A short, wide ski with skins and metal edges -- the Bala Hoks definitely have advantages. The universal binding is impressive. I expected it to be like toy snowboard straps. Is is not. It has a spring mechanism that makes it act like a telemark binding when the heel lifts and it is made with quality components.

My wife found the Alpina Discovery 68 difficult to turn going down hill.

What is my point? I am not sure. I guess would recommend a wide ski and a very stiff boot for skiing on icy hiking trails. Skins are probably better if you want to have more fun going up and grip wax is probably better if want to go faster on the way down. If control is more important than speed then I think having skins is actually a benefit for both up and down.

[karnel]

Ben, yes I use the Polar on the entire ski as a glide wax. It will improve grip on the scales as well. You will need to strip the glide wax for the grip wax to adhere to the base. Goo-gone is readily available and is a fine wax stripping solution.
I think it is easier to learn to turn on groomed snow, at least to begin. I don’t recommend going to the local downhill resorts. Ogemaw Hills pathway in West Branch is groomed, rated green, blue, black. They have snow now! I might do a day trip out there just because I want to slide. I am pasting a movie just posted by French Fred in the Equipment Reviews forum.

There are some drills that you would need to adapt to a narrow XC trail, but helpful none the less.
I do not recommend a shorter ski than what is recommended for your weight. However there are skis with more side cut and Nordic rocker that are made to turn. Casino login from desktop http://casinologinguide.com Two examples would be the Alpina Discovery 102 and the Fischer S-bound 98. I have an S-bound 112, but it is mounted 75 mm (3-pin), otherwise I could let you try that. A double cambered ski like your Discovery 62 (despite being a softer double cambered) does not want to bend. They don’t turn like a ski which is a camber and a half like the two skis I mentioned. However and this may sound contradictory your Discovery 62 does have a soft shovel and tip section that should help with step turning. For a double cambered ski, you should be able to work on your turns with that ski. The difficulty is that it would be easier if you knew the sensation of making a Telemark turn with a more turn oriented ski. Then your ski would be easy to handle. However a shorter version is just slower, without being significantLy easier to turn.

Edit: I do have a US 10 Leather Ski March 75 mm boot that you could use if I met you or an ancient aTelebreeze 75 mm boot that fits my size 11 foot, but my buddy had this for years and he is a 12.
So if you want to try the S-112 I could make arrangements. That is if you could fit one of those boots

Great movie! Thanks for sharing.

[Blackbeard Ben]

Hi Blackbear,

Good to see that someone else is attempting to ski on tree roots with some ice on top of them. Makes me feel a little less insane. I am in lower Western Michigan myself. It can be a lot of fun right after a big lake effect snow dump. But the way this winter is going and the way the last two went I am starting to think maybe the climate is not what it used to be. Lots of rain.

I am skiing on some old Scarpa T2s, Riva II Cable bindings and K2 Heli Stinx. I seem to find it more fun to ski on cheap (or free!) old equipment. I am not sure why.

But I am happy to buy new gear for my family. This year my wife got new Alpina Discovery 68 (fishscales) skis with Rottefella NNN BC bindings and Rossignol BC X5 boots. My daughter now has Balla Hok skis with the the universal binding.

We managed to get out twice so far before the snow melted.

Both my wife and daughter had a much easier time going up hill with their gear than I did with my skis waxed tip to tail as described in "LilCliffy's Nordic Backcountry Touring Waxing". As you said the skins on the Hok skis are really good for climbing. On the down hill I would glide right past both of them.

My daughter was able to snow plow and at one point said something like, "I though it would be hard but it is just like downhill skiing!". A short, wide ski with skins and metal edges -- the Bala Hoks definitely have advantages. The universal binding is impressive. I expected it to be like toy snowboard straps. Is is not. It has a spring mechanism that makes it act like a telemark binding when the heel lifts and it is made with quality components.

My wife found the Alpina Discovery 68 difficult to turn going down hill.

What is my point? I am not sure. I guess would recommend a wide ski and a very stiff boot for skiing on icy hiking trails. Skins are probably better if you want to have more fun going up and grip wax is probably better if want to go faster on the way down. If control is more important than speed then I think having skins is actually a benefit for both up and down.

Hey FourthCoast!

I like that way of describing it - tree roots with ice on top! That's winters in lower Michigan right there!

Unfortunately here on the east side of the state, we rarely get any of that lake effect snow. However, it is only 1.5-2 hours north to the snow belt for me.

That's interesting that your wife had that much of an easier time climbing than you did when compared to the Hoks. Granted, I haven't tried the full polar wax method yet on my Alpina Disco 68s, but they weren't even in the same league as the Hoks going uphill (or downhill).

Also interesting that your wife found the Alpinas difficult to turn downhill. Knowing now what I know about the camber of them, and the minimal sidecut, it's not that surprising. Still, they are much better than the ancient touring skis I used to use - 205 long, worn non-metal edges, cheap floppy 75 mm boots.

Good to know that your thoughts on skins vs wax uphill and downhill - that mirrors my experience so far. I'm a little surprised that you recommend a wide ski on icy hiking trails - is it the width itself that helps, or is it that wider skis tend to have a softer camber and will be easier to turn?

I'm going to go out tonight (late, but gotta go when you have snow!) to give my USGI skis their first real attempt here. That will be interesting. Also, I found that the heavily clearanced Madshus Eon 62 skis in the 205 length that should fit me, and I think I'll get them as an introduction to softer cambered and more sidecut skis for XCD'ing - but I probably should get a little testing of waxing to make sure I'm good with it. I know that half the time here in lower Michigan I won't be able to use them due to rapidly changing snow conditions and exposed roots/rocks/ground, so this'll just give me an excuse to buy some more down the road!

205 seems awfully long to me as well, but everything I read about the Eon says they are soft (1.5) cambered that benefits from a longer ski. So while I'd feel more comfortable maneuvering 195s, it seems like the 205 is really the ski to get for me at 205-ish pounds.

Also, I didn't take a close look at the universal binding on the Hoks, but that's good to know that it is really well built. If I do eventually get a pair of those, I'm not sure what route I would take for bindings.

[Blackbeard Ben]

fisheater,

I want to thank you with your wise comments regarding sticking to recommended ski lengths, and the ease of turning a single or camber and a half ski versus a traditional double camber XC ski.

I surprisingly got the waxable Madshus Eon 62 skis from Minnesota (ordered at nearly half off from 'The House') in just two days, and Sunday I drove up to XC Ski HQ to get bindings mounted. I got a few laps in on the hillier trails on my Åsnes USGI skis for comparison while waiting, and then hit the same ones again with the Eons afterwards.

It's like a whole new world has opened up! On the first hill I went down, I turned a wedge turn into a stem turn without even trying to. There's enough sidecut to make it relatively easy to parallel turn them (I'm still working on getting the edges engaged), and I just stated to pull into some tele turns in the hardpack, though I wasn't really completing them. Still, the ease at which they wanted to turn was quite surprising. I wonder if the slight front rocker was part of what made it easier, in addition to the lower camber.

It definitely has revealed to me very well that there's so much I don't know about how different geometry skis behave (let alone regarding technique). It definitely makes me want to try a bunch of different skis and boots.

I've been reading my copy of Cross Country Downhill again, and I started to watch The Telemark Movie, but I haven't finished it yet. The wealth of information here is on the forums is also amazing.

I hope to get out practicing again soon!

[fisheater]

Hello Ben,
You are yet another skier that is happy with the Eon, congratulations on an excellent choice of skis! I am happy you had such a positive first outing. If I helped, I am happy to have, but I think you just asked some questions and found the right ski, and that is awesome!