New leathers--crease control

[Whiteout]

As I think of replacements for Karhu Dorados, I think of boots between my plastics and my track boots. This lets back in the ancient possibility of leather. One major problem I had with them is where the initial crease formed in the forefront. Maybe because I chose boots a touch too large, the crease could form right across the toes, in exactly the wrong place. And it was a total crapshoot within a pair. For illustration, here is a section of a new-favorite YTube channel, Tom M. His left boot breaks where I'd want it, where toe bones meet instep; right boot has two creases, one across the toe knuckles.

I never heard of a way to control this at break-in, but then I left for the plastic world of heavy tele. Any secrets? Am zeroing in on Alaskas or Fischer BCX, prob 6.

https://youtu.be/PgOkanEdt28?t=35

Edit: Oops, a little better search finds me this:

[snip]
I believe the most important factor for successful break in of these boots is they need to fit from the start. If you have extra volume (space) at the flex point of the boot, the leather will form a crease at that point because it has room to form that crease. You need to use those insoles to make sure you don’t have extra volume to create those pinch points.[snip]

[Stephen]

I will add to what Mr. fisheater posted.
I had a similar problem with Alfa Guard boots — one boot broke right, the other broke painful across toes.
Before these boots and TelemarkTalk, I had never heard of “low volume foot.”
Turns out I have low volume feet.
I think this is what fisheater is talking about.

I have added a wool liner, IN ADDITION TO, the standard footbed liner that come with the boots.
I think I could actually add another 1-3mm of foam, and plan to try that.
Since adding the second liner, to take up the extra space, I have not had a problem with where the boot is breaking.
This MAY be what is going on for you.
If you don’t know about low volume feet, do some research to see if that’s you.
There is lots on this site — search “low volume” from main page.

[Rodbelan]

You can also use mink oil very specificly where the crease forms, on top of the boot. Do not put too much everywhere; your boot will become whimpy...

[lowangle al]

I feel your pain, I had the same problem with my first pair of tele boots. I put a piece of foam on top of my foot, it helped, but I think your idea of extra foot beds is probably better. I never did get the problem solved before destroying them from too many newbe tele crashes.

I always thought I had a low volume feet because even though I could smell them I couldn't hear them. My problem was the boots were too long to make room my wide feet. I hope you get it worked out.

[Tom M]

His left boot breaks where I'd want it, where toe bones meet instep; right boot has two creases, one across the toe knuckles.

I never heard of a way to control this at break-in, but then I left for the plastic world of heavy tele. Any secrets? Am zeroing in on Alaskas or Fischer BCX, prob 6.

As you noted, if the boot creases across the top of the toes, it can be a problem, especially for me because I have significant toe curl on both feet. The right boot was very uncomfortable and rubbed on the top of the toes, especially if the day involved lots of tele turns. I knew I had to do something to try and move the flex back, or these boots weren't going to work for me. It was time to retrain the leather, so after each outing, I would stuff the toe of the right boot with rags, put the boot back into the ski, place a velcro strap forward of where I wanted the new flex point to be, then prop up the boot and force it into a telemark position. It is hard to see in the photo, but the velcro strap goes around the ski to keep the toe of the boot planted on the top of the ski. I would leave the boots in that position until the next ski. I did not wet the leather, because they were already moist from inside from the day's ski. I've skied these boots 5 or six times this season and they are still forming to my feet. I haven't solved all my fit issues yet, but this has helped with the toe pinch issue.

[Whiteout]

Great stuff, all--thanks. And, Al, I did laugh!

Foot volume has always mystified me when I'm asked. How would I know? There's no store Brannock for it. Till recently it's just been the seller's eyeball notion. What I can search up is to measure from heel-at-floor to heel-at-floor. If # = foot length, normal volume. Will try this. But grilling of guy who I paid $$ for orthotics yielded "about normal," so my best judgement so far. I know I do have a heel that needs a good heel pocket, and toes that spread & want some width. These sound like low volume issues.

I do have platform spacers--bontex and foam. I imagine a break-in period using them, but thinner at the heel to preserve heel pocket.

Tom M, man, that's a great system. I was going to say I don't own these boots yet so don't need to fix them, but usually the crease forms the instant you try them on, walk and genuflect. And in a store, where I will get them, likely someone else already has done this. So I am definitely going straight to your training vise.

The Mink Oil goes where you WANT the crease, right? To soften and allow? In the day, leather was either "chrome tanned" or "oil tanned." Chrome tanned got no oil but wax (Snowseal). Ancient history? I do have a strong aversion to proprietary woo-woo alchemy. If they can't tell me precisely what's in the recommendation and whyfor, I get surly. Urges to whip up a naphtha & paraffin brew.

[phoenix]

Whiteout, the Brannock does give feedback regarding volume, by accurately measuring width, as well as length. Average men's width is a "D"; narrower means lower volume. "B" is average for women.
It also measures arch length, which is often overlooked. Lots of folks' foot length, and arch length, are not the same, and both need to be taken into consideration for best fit.
Determining high or low instep is more elusive; but folks seldom have an an issue with that.

[Krummholz]

Tom,
Not only do you make great videos! Your great at boot fitment too. I’ve been working on a pair of Ski March boots trying to get them to fit and work the crease in. The toes are stuffed with rolled up socks stuffed in the toes for a little stretch now I just need to put them in the skis and find something to lift the heels a little.

[Rodbelan]

The Mink Oil goes where you WANT the crease, right? To soften and allow? In the day, leather was either "chrome tanned" or "oil tanned." Chrome tanned got no oil but wax (Snowseal). Ancient history? I do have a strong aversion to proprietary woo-woo alchemy. If they can't tell me precisely what's in the recommendation and whyfor, I get surly. Urges to whip up a naphtha & paraffin brew.

Do not get surly... Where do you see alchemy? Alchemy for me is «The Hunting of the green lion» type of thing... This is a no brainer; mink oil softens leather like noting else (maybe some commercial product cobbler use would be better). You put that on top of the toe cage; rub it to make it penetrate; do not use too much; better to repeat if necessary. Voilà.

Some guys did put mink oil all over their boots and found that they became too flimsy... Hence my avertissement...

[Whiteout]

I won't get surly with Mink oil, Rod. Pretty sure what it is. "Alchemy," for me is scientific sounding names used not to inform but lead the listener to give up and assume the speakers is ontop of a complex scientific understanding, so they don't need to. It all erupted for me once when trying to figure out exactly how to renew the DWR of my beloved gortex parka. I read all the technical FAQs I could click up--Pata, WLGore,--going through soap (stearates) and its scum, detergents (do you want ionic surfactants, anionic, or both?), contaminating fragrances. Nikwax is the kind of product that makes me surly. Woo-woo science mystery words--"harsh", "contaminating"-- on top of the fact that they just don't work. (At least to put the DWR back to new). Now I don't try. Wash until intolerable, then buy new. You can't take it with you. I saw something here about treating Alaskas with a product in damp towels. So, a water soluble wax. Can do.

But...here's a guy who feels my pain on curiousity killing scientific "explanations"!

"Funny... If you search on the net, you'll find 2 types of answer:
—«don't do that, hot scrape instead» (based on a very very intelligent syllogism; base cleaner are harsh, will harm your skis...) That' complete bullshit. Bases are made of plastic (Ptex polyethylene) and are inert.
—use commercial base cleaner; «common, don't be cheap, just 20$ for 150ml... it will last forever.» Nope. It won't. If you ski à Noël pis au jour de l'an exclusivement, ciboire, oui, ça va durer. I do not like to be robbed in repackaging/marketing BS."