Ski recommendation

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lilcliffy
Posts: 2932
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:20 pm
Location: Stanley, New Brunswick, Canada
Ski style: Nordic backcountry touring
Favorite Skis: Asnes Ingstad BC; Asnes Gamme 54 BC; Asnes Storetind Carbon; Madshus Annum; Asnes Comabt Nato
Favorite boots: Alfa Guard Advance BC; Alpina Alaska BC; Crispi Svartisen BC; Scarpa T4
Occupation: Forestry Professional
Instructor at Maritime College of Forest Technology
Husband, father, farmer and logger

Re: Ski recommendation

Post by lilcliffy » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:02 pm

Musk Ox wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:02 pm
I've never tried them either, but I rather suspect Le P'tit Cliff will be along in a minute to recommend Combat NATO as well.
Well Master of Musk! I might recommend the Combat Nato...I love this ski- but I won't recommend it until we get more info from Larshaha. :ugeek:
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.

User avatar
lilcliffy
Posts: 2932
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:20 pm
Location: Stanley, New Brunswick, Canada
Ski style: Nordic backcountry touring
Favorite Skis: Asnes Ingstad BC; Asnes Gamme 54 BC; Asnes Storetind Carbon; Madshus Annum; Asnes Comabt Nato
Favorite boots: Alfa Guard Advance BC; Alpina Alaska BC; Crispi Svartisen BC; Scarpa T4
Occupation: Forestry Professional
Instructor at Maritime College of Forest Technology
Husband, father, farmer and logger

Re: Ski recommendation

Post by lilcliffy » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:12 pm

Roelant wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:31 pm
I have the Combat Nato and Nansen as well.
Combat Nato is the most distance oriented of my skis. Followed kind of closely by the Nansen and then more remotely by the FT62. Their downhill abilities are in the same order but reverse.
In a first glance this is surprising as the Nato is wider than the Nansen but it has a double camber and very stiff mid section whereas the Nansen is single camber and softer.
This is consistent with your reviews and tests and photos Roelant- as well as Pal Gamme's tests in UTE magazine.

As I have both the Ingstad BC and the Combat Nato- I would describe the camber and stiffness underfoot to be pretty close (I will flex them again to remind myself).
The Ingstad BC has a stiffer flex- over its length- than the Combat Nato.
The Combat Nato has a softer, more flexible tip-shovel and tail than the Ingstad BC.
The Ingstad BC has very signficant Nordic rocker in the shovel-tip- the Combat Nato has none.
The Ingstad BC has more taper in the tip/tail than the Combat Nato- the Combat Nato has a wide, raised tip for breaking trail in deep snow and crust.
From other brands consider also the Madshus m62 and the Fischer S bound 98
These are good skis to consider as well, and are almost as different as the Ingstad vs FT62.
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.





User avatar
lilcliffy
Posts: 2932
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:20 pm
Location: Stanley, New Brunswick, Canada
Ski style: Nordic backcountry touring
Favorite Skis: Asnes Ingstad BC; Asnes Gamme 54 BC; Asnes Storetind Carbon; Madshus Annum; Asnes Comabt Nato
Favorite boots: Alfa Guard Advance BC; Alpina Alaska BC; Crispi Svartisen BC; Scarpa T4
Occupation: Forestry Professional
Instructor at Maritime College of Forest Technology
Husband, father, farmer and logger

Re: Ski recommendation

Post by lilcliffy » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:23 pm

Musk Ox wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:42 pm
Ah, OK! Right... I'd somehow got it in my head that the Combat NATOs were good on the steeps...
The Combat Nato is good on the steeps (for a XC ski)- they are stable and turnable- though they do not plane like the Ingstad BC, nor do they offer the turn-initiation of the Ingstad BC. The Combat Nato is definitely a more versatile XC ski than the Ingstad BC, however.
I still maintain that Cliffy will recommend them though, he would recommend NATOs as essential equipment for space walks and escapes from scuttled nuclear submarines.
I don't know if I would use them in either of those situations- however, I would definitely want/need them next to my bunk to maintain my inner strength and confidence. (I always have a set of Combat skis resting next to my desk in my office for the same reasons!)

Regardless:
#1- I will be taking skis with me into space- I have faith that there is "snow" out there (or some suitable replacement)- and the Combat Nato might well be it if I could only take one...

#2- How I would escape a submarine: race to towards either of the poles (in my wind-solar sailboat) and jump out onto the polar icesheet wth my Combat Natos, bearing rifle loaded with armor-piercing rounds.
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.





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Roelant
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed May 15, 2019 6:33 am
Location: Subarctic Scandinavian Taiga
Ski style: Backcountry in the wild, cross country on trails
Favorite Skis: Nansen, FT62, Combat NATO
Favorite boots: Crispi Bre, Scarpa T4
Occupation: Ion Counter

Re: Ski recommendation

Post by Roelant » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:46 pm

lilcliffy wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:23 pm

Regardless:
#1- I will be taking skis with me into space- I have faith that their is "snow" out there (or some suitable replacement)- and the Combat Nato might well be it if I could only take one...

#2- How I would escape a submarine- race to towards either of the poles and jump out onto the polar icesheet wth my Combat Natos, bearing rifle loaded with armor-piercing rounds.
Combat Nato could be the ideal ski to ski on moon dust.





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Larshaha
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:21 pm

Re: Ski recommendation

Post by Larshaha » Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:08 am

Hi all and wow, thanks for the overwhelming response and great information and recommendations.

Ive tried to asnwer the incoming questions below regarding about additional information:

I think you are quite correct when you write you would go for you downhill oriented setup. I belive I want a fun fjellski that can cover distance and help becoming better at skiing downhill, but that is a lot lighter/less hassle than a pure skitouring gear

My father has the Ingstads which I can then borrow from time to time (when not on a trip with him at least), so this adds to me thinking another ski could be more fun/interesting. I also belive I will buy another ski at a later point which is less downhill oriented (e.g Gamme or Ousland), potentially with NNNBC.

The mountain range near the cabin gets very windy so it usually has a thin and hard packed layer of snow and not a lot of powder (almost always less than 15 cm). The conditions can get tricky with uneven and icy upper layer that you dont break through.

My motivation for skiing is getting to the top and the amazing views and exercise, but Im increasingly enjoying the getting most out of the downhill skiing as well (learning telemark turns now). I am in good shape (and look at skiing as a work out) so currently Im not too worried about my gear potentially slowing me down compared to my skiing group.

I understand that "steep" could mean anything, but for me these skis would be used for slopes below 30 degrees and my favourite summit has a 500 meter drop of 20-25 degrees or so), which I would say is relatively steep. I have previously skied down there with anything from full ski touring gear to regular CX skis (not recommended...). The other peaks are easier.

The first 10k is more or less flat to get into the middle of the mountains, then the around 1000 m accent starts. Roundtrip can typically be 30+ k so backcountry skis are preferable to ski touring with this distance.

An additional point: I did try my fathers Ingstads and I really felt they were good for skating(/freestyle), so this is definitely a bonus as it is a super way to cover large distances if the conditions are right (hard packed/icy - typical where I ski)

Ive read talks about the Otto Sverdrup skis on the forum here, but never seen any "official" information so Im not sure what to expect.

In general I would not be pulling weight as the idea of the ski is to be able to do long day trips and summits, though my family has a sledge/pulk and it could happen that I do multi day trips with larger backpack, but I belive a second pair of skis should cover this usage instead.

Sorry, that was a lot of additional information... and thanks again for all your input and feedback!





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jyw5
Posts: 250
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:52 am

Re: Ski recommendation

Post by jyw5 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:51 pm

Your route is very similar to my regular route here in Alaska but with less snow. Near the top of the pass and ridges, the snow is thin, windblown and hard and almost never breakable. The FT62 performs poorly as the rocker tip bounces as it slaps the hard surface....and thats with full skins (I wouldn't even think of trying to ski it with anything less). However, the FT62 excels on the downhill in good conditions and turns very easily. Your Ingstad may be the choice... the REI sports store here in my area carries the Ingstad WL, so I get the feeling that these skis may be the right ones for these conditions. The Nansen/Skog may be a good choice too, but not as downhill oriented, but excellent for the flat approach. I frequently run into this problem and have to make a choice...do I just carry the skis on the flat/low angle trail?? sometimes, thats what I do for several km and find it faster than trying to ski in. Having several pairs of skis to choose from helps alot and makes each trip quite different.





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Roelant
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed May 15, 2019 6:33 am
Location: Subarctic Scandinavian Taiga
Ski style: Backcountry in the wild, cross country on trails
Favorite Skis: Nansen, FT62, Combat NATO
Favorite boots: Crispi Bre, Scarpa T4
Occupation: Ion Counter

Re: Ski recommendation

Post by Roelant » Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:15 am

@Larshaha if you live in Trondheim perhaps you could try my FT62s some time if we ski together. They are size 196, mounted with Rottefella Super Telemark cable bindings.
I'm not sure that I can make it happen this season though.
I would rather do the 30 km tour you describe on my Nansens or Combat Nato than FT62, but as others have mentioned, it may depend on the snow conditions.

Cheers





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Larshaha
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:21 pm

Re: Ski recommendation

Post by Larshaha » Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:36 am

jyw5 wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:51 pm
Your Ingstad may be the choice...

It seems many are leaning towards this recommendation (/Combat NATO). I have tried my fathers Ingstads and they feel great - just a bit boring to buy a ski that I could borrow almost whenever I want...
I frequently run into this problem and have to make a choice...do I just carry the skis on the flat/low angle trail??
Can't say Ive had this problem before (except in very strong winds and CX skis crossing a lake)

Roelant wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:15 am
@Larshaha if you live in Trondheim perhaps you could try my FT62s
I would rather do the 30 km tour you describe on my Nansens or Combat Nato than FT62, but as others have mentioned, it may depend on the snow conditions.
That is so nice of you and thanks for the offer, but I'm based in Oslo though so would be tricky. I get a feeling that Falketind is not ideal for the conditions in Rondane or as an downhill oriented "allround" ski.

I see that both FISCHER E109 and ROSSIGNOL BC 100 get great reviews from Utemagasinet but arent that frequently mentioned on the forum (as far as Ive seen). Any reason for this? would they be candidates?

Thanks agian.





User avatar
Roelant
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed May 15, 2019 6:33 am
Location: Subarctic Scandinavian Taiga
Ski style: Backcountry in the wild, cross country on trails
Favorite Skis: Nansen, FT62, Combat NATO
Favorite boots: Crispi Bre, Scarpa T4
Occupation: Ion Counter

Re: Ski recommendation

Post by Roelant » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:04 am

Larshaha wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:36 am
It seems many are leaning towards this recommendation (/Combat NATO). I have tried my fathers Ingstads and they feel great - just a bit boring to buy a ski that I could borrow almost whenever I want...

I see that both FISCHER E109 and ROSSIGNOL BC 100 get great reviews from Utemagasinet but arent that frequently mentioned on the forum (as far as Ive seen). Any reason for this? would they be candidates?

Thanks agian.
Which Ingstad generation does your father have? The new model with the red sole? The older ones (2017 and older) are nearly identical to NATO, supposedly, and hence quite different from the newer model.

There is a review thread by @lilcliffy where on several occasions he compares the "new" Ingstad to the E109
http://telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f ... d09b073277

The Rossignol skis have been updated recently, supposedly they are better than they used to be. But I have no experience with them.





User avatar
lilcliffy
Posts: 2932
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:20 pm
Location: Stanley, New Brunswick, Canada
Ski style: Nordic backcountry touring
Favorite Skis: Asnes Ingstad BC; Asnes Gamme 54 BC; Asnes Storetind Carbon; Madshus Annum; Asnes Comabt Nato
Favorite boots: Alfa Guard Advance BC; Alpina Alaska BC; Crispi Svartisen BC; Scarpa T4
Occupation: Forestry Professional
Instructor at Maritime College of Forest Technology
Husband, father, farmer and logger

Re: Ski recommendation

Post by lilcliffy » Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:52 am

Larshaha wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:08 am
The first 10k is more or less flat to get into the middle of the mountains, then the around 1000 m accent starts. Roundtrip can typically be 30+ k so backcountry skis are preferable to ski touring with this distance.
So if I interpret this correctly-
You are saying that the distance warrants a "backcountry" ski (i.e. "fjellski"/"Nordic Touring ski") as opposed to an "Alpine Touring" ski (i.e. "Toppturski")- yes?

But you are looking for a BC Nordic Touring ski that is decent/fun downhill- yes?

So- first point to make here- many skiers use modern Telemark setups for this type of skiing. By this I mean they are using an AT ski with a modern Telemark boot and binding. This is one option- and many skiers will always start here as they are primarily "touring-for-turns".

As far as a BC Nordic Touring ski that has some decent downhill performance- to me there are three categories:

1) Old-School Telemark skis: long, narrow, low-cambered, round-flexing. (Example: Asnes Nansen- this is the only ski I can think of that still fits this criteria.)

2) XC skis tuned for steep terrain: long, narrow, camber and resistance underfoot- but rockered and/or flexible shovel/tail to facilitate turning (Examples: E109; Eon(M62); Ingstad; Combat Nato; Fischer 78; etc.).

3) So-called Hybrid Nordic Touring skis: Nordic touring skis that have a lot of the geometry and features of AT skis (Examples: FT62; Rabb 68; Fischer 98/112; Madshus Epoch(M68)/Annum(M78); etc.)

The description of the soon-to-be-released Sverdrup ski seems to fit in category#2 above- despite Asnes' claim that it will be as easy and fun to turn as the Nansen.

Having never even seen a current Nansen- I am not 100% sure that it does not best fit in category#2 as well- while Roleant's descriptions and pictures clearly indciate that the Nansen has a rounder flex than a ski like the Combat Nato/Ingstad/E109- in the current era, I am sure most people would consider the Nansen as a "XC" ski. So perhaps there is really only two categories above.

On the subject of #3 category above ("Hybrid" skis)- after more than 20 years using this class of skis- I have kinda given up on them as everyday touring skis. I find I am never really satisfied with any of them. They basicly suck as XC skis, and they are really not that great downhill skis either- at least not compared to a fully-committed modern AT ski. My point is that if you are seriously considering skis like the examples listed above in #3- I would strongly recommend you consider modern AT skis as well. For example- I am not convinced that a Fischer 112 or Madshus Annum/78 is any more efficient as a XC ski than a modern AT ski and the difference in downhill performance is massive. There was a time that these "hybrid" designs had the Nordic Touring benefit of being much lighter than AT skis- this is no longer the case. Heck- a Voile Objective BC weighs LESS than a Madshus 78...

My continued interest in hybrid skis is purely a function of passion and the desire to support passion. What I mean is that I bought a Falketind 62 for the fun of trying it and supporting a ski manufacturer's passion project. To be completely honest I find the FT62 fun in ideal conditions- otherwise I am currently not thrilled with it.

DISCLAIMER: this is all purely based on my own limited personal skiing experience. There could well be skiers where their tyical conditions are ideal for a ski like the FT62...

Please forgive my longwindedness here but if you really want a "backcountry" ski that is an efficient XC ski- but manageable in steep terrain- then I still think a XC ski that is tuned for steep terrain is the best choice (category #2 above).

If you want a downhill ski- then look for a downhill ski- and widen your search to include modern light AT skis.
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.





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