Newish XC skier looking for suggestions on getting deeper out there

[chris_the_wrench]

Howdy all.

Abit of background, I just found this site and joined. I used to xc ski golf-courses and groomed trails quite abit with my Dad growing up, but I took about a 20+ year hiatus till last winter. My focus for most of my life has been to the alpine style and lift served skiing. I've got the avalanche training/gear and spend a fair amount of time in the backcountry when I can find a reliable partner. I alpine ski/backcountry(alpine'ish gear) about 90-100 days a year. However this past winter I invested in some new XC gear. It was a spur of the moment decision to buy some new gear which I didn't research too much, and, as I'm sure all of you know, XC gear was hardly available this year(visited 4 stores to get outfitted). I ended up with some Salomon Escape Outpath 64 skis, that I squeezed some Rottefella NNN BC bindings, and Madshus Vidda boots.

Overall this setup works great for me. I live in NW Montana and use them on groomed trails with my wife but really enjoy getting out on the rolling terrain of our backcountry. Primarily logging roads and forest service roads, but also just straight out across inviting terrain.

I really want to do some overnighter and longer trips. The issue Im running into with my setup is going up sustained longer climbs, especially if its bait icy. Slippage!!

Anyway to climb uphill better? I saw some UK site where the guy modded the NNN BC binding to accept a ski crampon. Looked not to difficult. Or am I better off tracking down some skinny skins?

Also I miss my heel lifts from my AT gear. Thats nice for those long climbs to be able to rest my calves. Any solutions there?

Downhill is quite the comedy but I still have fun laughing at myself crashing on what I'd consider a green run.

Thanks for any input! Looking forward to getting involved with this community.

-Chris

[lilcliffy]

Hello Chris and Welcome!

So- is the only issue climbing grip? On just icey snow?
What are you climbing that would require crampons?
Why would you consider crampons before skins?

A number of skiers on this site have removed the NNNBC heel piece and have installed a heel piece with climbing elevators. You can probably find photos of these on the Ski Review Board. Check out Johnny's NNNBC setup in his Asnes Rabb and Tindan reviews.

Again welcome- keep sharing your ski story!
Gareth

[jyw5]

Full skins work just fine on steep climbs. If you need ski crampons, its most likely not possible or dangerous to ski down on NNNBC...at least thats my rule of thumb. I often take the skis off and just boot the rest of the way and take a more gentle angle down...and if too icy, I leave the skins on...or even have walk down if it isn't safe to ski it. Most steep slopes can be climbed if there is good purchase...just switchback your way up, angle your uphill ski edge into the snow. also, no need for heel risers unless you are doing multiday thousands and thousands of vertical with sections of consistent steady steep angles. And if sidehilling, heel risers work against you.

You can get Voile heel risers and swap out the heel plate of the NNN BC binding.

Always bring 2 pairs of skins. I bring a full and kicker.

fyi, i started as a predominantly lift served skiier too. Backcountry skiing is very different...especially on NNNBC. You need to basically unlearn everything you learned and relearn.

[chris_the_wrench]

Thanks for the replies.

Kicker skins require the skis to be settup specifically for those, yes?? Mine aren’t to my knowledge.

so Im going to track down some full length skins for these skis. Your note about if its too steep for skins its probably to steep for nnn bc, true that!! Found that out the hard way, had to down hike a few sections.

I love the simplicity of the nnn bc and leather boots. So comfortable and warm(boots) compared to my alpine and alpine touring gear. I enjoy the waxless base for rolling terrain vs straight up/straight down i generally do with At gear and skins. Its got me thinking about another pair of wider skis, how wide is the nnn bc capable of controlling??

[fisheater]

Black Diamond makes a kicker skin that can be mounted to most skis. They do not need a manufactured attachment point.
https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/e ... cker-50mm/

[stilltryin]

I have some BD kickers from years past -- seems like i read somewhere they (or at least one model) have been discontinued -- anybody have the real intel?
https://www.campsaver.com/black-diamond ... skins.html
Ha -- the "replacements" suggested by "experts" at campsaver don't seem to do the trick!

[jyw5]

You can go as wide as 94mm underfoot for NNNBC but a reasonable range is from 48mm-86mm underfoot. underfoot width is of course only 1 of many specs when deciding on what ski to choose.

I have the BD kickers...they are just ok. They will most likely be in stock next season as this is the end of the season for most areas in N. America. BD kickers are easier to put on and much lighter/smaller and great for days where you don't need much grip.

You can also go to skimo.co and they can custom make one for you. a bit expensive but if you want one right now, thats the way to go.

Or, if your ski tips are less than 80mm and waist width is between 50mm-62mm, a tip attachment only skin is great and can be trimmed at the tail. just remove the excess.

But before jumping in and buying new skins, figure out exactly what you plan on using them for (i.e., conditions, slope angle, max grip, max glide, uphill travel only, etc)...and ultimately, the skins must compliment your setup and abilities.

For example, my wife has the Salomon 164cm X-Alp S-lab with MTN tech bindings. She wears the Arcteryx procline boots and has the 100% mohair Pomoca Race Pro 2.0 tip attachment only. This is one fast and light racing AT setup at a reasonable price. I believe Kilian Jornet used this setup and broke some records. This setup is optimized for speed and crazy amts of glide on the skins. And the boot/ski performance, without too much compromise downhill.

My "skimo" NNNBC setup is the FT62/NNNBC/Alfa Guard adv. boots/Pomoca Race Pro 2 skins. Downhill performance unfortunately is only great in optimal snow conditions.

I used my AT setup for the 1st time today since last May...wow. now I remember why I love NNNBC...my feet hurt after only skiing 3500ft vertical.

[lilcliffy]

I have some BD kickers from years past -- seems like i read somewhere they (or at least one model) have been discontinued -- anybody have the real intel?
https://www.campsaver.com/black-diamond ... skins.html
Ha -- the "replacements" suggested by "experts" at campsaver don't seem to do the trick!

Black Diamond redesigned their kicker skins- they now have a synthetic skid plate: https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/e ... cker-50mm/

They are sold out for this season- I would expect them to be in stock in the coming months.

The model on the Campsaver site ↑ is the old model with the metal skid plate.

[lilcliffy]

These work great too- if you can find them: https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5048-442/ ... rdic-Skins

[chris_the_wrench]

“ but before jumping in and buying new skins, figure out exactly what you plan on using them for (i.e., conditions, slope angle, max grip, max glide, uphill travel only, etc)...and ultimately, the skins must compliment your setup and abilities.”

I’d like a ski that has better downhill character on less forgiving snow and provides better float for backcountry trips into glacier natl park. Rolling terrain with occasional long gradual climbs. Im willing to carry some more weight uphill. I alpine ski everywhere on most western mountains, but on my current xc skis I can barely survive the mellowest of green runs UNLESS theres some fresh snow. But the other day I was trying some spring xc and I encountered variable conditions of slop and ice. I, seriously, crashed like 10-15 times within 100 yards. I know my technique for ‘xcd’ sucks and Im trying to deal with that too.