Telemark Talk / Telemark Tips Forum

Greetings! Long time lurker, first time poster. Happy to be here.

I haven’t been able to figure out the difference between, say, a Madshus epoch ski (99-68-84) and a light ski mountaineering ski like the dynafit black light (110-74-95). Is it the camber and the skiMo skis focusing more on the downhill, ie stiffer? Can someone smarter than me weigh in? I’m talking about the skis themselves not the binding choice. What makes them different since they are very close in weight and width? Would a skiMo ski tour as well as something the annum or epoch and would the annum or epoch ski as well downhill as a light skiMo ski?

I also haven’t been able to just physically see them in person which would prolly answer a lot of questions. I have epochs. I’m an expert alpine skiier, but just started xcD last year and greatly enjoying roller coastery single tracks that I trail run in the other 3 seasons.

Any feedback is welcome! Let’s discuss!

I'll weigh in, though I'm not smarter than you!
Isn't skimo more mountaineering related?
I think bauerb might be doing this stuff competitively.

It looks to be more "vertically oriented".

https://www.tahoemountainsports.com/what-is-skimo

Skimo skis are an exercise in suffering. They are designed strictly to be as light as possible. They do not glide, they do not ski well, they are just good enough so you can run up and down mountains while above lactate threshold. They only come in stupid short lengths. They are not good for anything other than racing. The only exception is if you have lots of hardpack, with steep up and down (like the great divide race) skimo skis skate pretty well.

Many folks here like to XCD tour on "ski mountaineering" type skis, like the voile objective. I'm one of them. But even these are more of a shuffle instead of a good kick and glide. They are soft, low camber skis really meant for good performance going downhill.

I also have a pair of insgtad wl skis. They weight almost exactly the same as my objectives, at 195cm for the ingstads and 171cm for the objectives. The ingstads are much better on the flats, with much more of a xc camber and kick pocket, but are not as confident on the downhill.

There is no free lunch, nor a perfect ski for all conditions. But skimo skis suck for everything if you're not racing.

Well, cross THOSE off my list!

Wow! Great responses, thank you all! Appreciate that link to the Tahoe mountain sports page, too.

Seems like the skis themselves are quite different. SkiMo is very much uphill-as-fast-as-possible and built that way. I was confusing the core idea of “ski mountaineering” with what I use my xcd skis for.

That said, the endurance athlete and trail runner in me is now quite intrigued with this skiMo aspect of skiing…haha! Something to learn more about in the coming years. Anyone from northern New Mexico mountain ranges here that mess with it?

In my opinion the biggest difference between skimo skis and wider XCD skis like the SB 98’s/112’s and the like is torsional rigidity. The XCD skis are in essence cross country ski construction writ large. In powder they’re great for downhill but in icy/cruddy/sloppy spring condition I’ve found them to get easily deflected. skimo and mountaineering skis are much more skiable downhill IMO because of their more “alpine” construction.

As an example I’ve skied Karhu Guides, Rossignol 110’s and G3 Stinger XCD in cruddy and sloppy Spring conditions in the Vancouver North Shore mountains in that order. The Stingers were an eye opener after the other two, they are essentially
AT skis with a waxless base and performed flawlessly in more difficult snow. Same goes for Voiles excellent line. I’ve had a pair of Vector BC’s for about eight years and would never let them go.

Lightfoot wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:25 pm

Wow! Great responses, thank you all! Appreciate that link to the Tahoe mountain sports page, too.

Seems like the skis themselves are quite different. SkiMo is very much uphill-as-fast-as-possible and built that way. I was confusing the core idea of “ski mountaineering” with what I use my xcd skis for.

That said, the endurance athlete and trail runner in me is now quite intrigued with this skiMo aspect of skiing…haha! Something to learn more about in the coming years. Anyone from northern New Mexico mountain ranges here that mess with it?

check out Skimo.co for a selection of skimo/racing skis. They have satisfactory downhill performance in short lengths (160cm). Look and compare the turning radius between skis. As others have already said, xcD nordic skis will k&g better in general but are not very turny with exceptions of skis like the Asnes Falketind 62 (old version) which is basically a downhill oriented ski (easily used for skimo). They turn a little easier coming down due to sidecut and the camber and a half design...but only on good snow.

Also, I like racing skis because they have the notched tips for race skin attachment. Makes transitions super fast (no taking skis off). This is just a great feature for day tours...even if you arent racing.

I have skiied in N. NM...Taos/Angel Fire. In fact, planning on retiring in Angel Fire someday. The snow you guys get is highly variable depending on where you are, the elevation, and the aspect of the mountains. I think the skis of choice depend on what you plan to do and when. After huge dumps of snow, when its deep at Taos, its just easier to use wider traditional alpine skis and gear for a pleasant downhill experience. Thin ultralight skis are great for spring conditions. For example, the route up Williams Lake to Wheeler Peak, depending on skills and intended route down, you could take a nordic ski like the Asnes series and power down...but it would still be better to use skimo skis as it would be much easier to turn and deal with the variable snow as it changes from 13k to 10k ft. (you could save alot of weight with leather boots and NNNBC setup on nordic skis...that would be the greatest advantage if your feet feel better in leather vs. plastic. but this is at the great expense of downhill peformance) Also, can ski some steep lines if you have the experience.

There isn't much advantage with xcD nordic gear as far as speed as you arent skating and K&G on those routes. My take on mountains in NM is that the flat approach to steep terrain is short... you don't need nordic performance for short flattish approaches. Here in Alaska, we have some approaches that are 6 (or more) miles before you hit the steep stuff... so its nice to have skis that K&G....otherwise, its a long walk. In NM, the routes dont get crazy steep like Alaska, but they are all uphill. The grade is a nice steady climb. That's perfect for an alpine setup. Those skimo skis with full length straight racing skins will climb like crazy. It's a wonderful experience.

I have married the two disciplines by having the Asnes FT62, NNNBC, Alfa Guard Adv boots, and 62mm Pomoca Race Pro 2.0 (mohair) skins. Its a skimo rocket in the spring and my feet feel great.

My future AT setup for this category:

Salomon MTN Summit 79 164cm 113-79-99 or
Plum Le Roc D'Enfer Ski 160cm 97-68.5-83

Plum Race 120 Bindings
Scott Cosmos Alpine Touring boots 26.5
Colltex PDG Race Skin 70mm (mohair)

it would be interesting to compare and contrast the performance of these on the up and down vs. my current NNNBC setup. I havent decided between the 2 skis because there are pros and cons to be evaluated as the widths are quite different and the MTN has a much shorter turning radius, better in steep and deep, but the Plum would rock on spring snow and icy hardpack.

My pursuit of good ski feel/extreme lightness often has me looking at skimo gear and wishing the XCD world had the same R&D budgets.

Even though I know I'd lose the toe piece resistance for a solid kick and glide and I could NEVER afford to buy the top-end skimo gear, I sometimes fantasize about putting a ridiculously light skimo binding like this https://skimo.co/dynafit-p49-bindings (49g per binding!) on my Nansens and using a ridiculously light skimo racing boot. Compared to the NNN BC binding and my 880g Stetind, the skimo binding/boot combo is featherlight.

@jyw5 Have you ever considered mixing and matching XCD and skimo gear like this?

Transplantskier wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:42 am

My pursuit of good ski feel/extreme lightness often has me looking at skimo gear and wishing the XCD world had the same R&D budgets.


Even though I know I'd lose the toe piece resistance for a solid kick and glide and I could NEVER afford to buy the top-end skimo gear, I sometimes fantasize about putting a ridiculously light skimo binding like this https://skimo.co/dynafit-p49-bindings (49g per binding!) on my Nansens and using a ridiculously light skimo racing boot. Compared to the NNN BC binding and my 880g Stetind, the skimo binding/boot combo is featherlight.

jyw5 Have you ever considered mixing and matching XCD and skimo gear like this?

I'm not sure some of the skis can take the forces of the tech bindings and boots.

Also, I think if you get leather boots and a nordic binding (xplore, nnnbc, 3pin, etc) you really want the camber of the xc ski and skin attachment point on Asnes or Fischer is nice to have also. Nansen shouldn't be mounted with tech bindings. that's just my opinion.

As for a skimo plastic boots and tech binding...it might be too much force to mount on narrow xc skis...especially for the type of downhill skiing I would be doing. I have looked at the wider Asnes Tindan 86 and Fjoro 92 which are compatible with tech bindings. But those skis arent really nordic skis...they are more downhill oriented, so the one advantage with those would be the skin attachment...but then they dont take X skins...they use the wider Access skins...so then you are buying yet another specialized skin...so you are better off with Black Diamond kicker skins or clipon narrower straight full length skins on any ski. so in this case, I would still prefer a tech binding + skimo skis.

So at widths between 62mm to 92mm, its best to decide what the use is for and buy the appropriate setup.

a 62mm FT62 xcD (leather boots) is great for fast and light spring skiing on moderate to steep terrain with good snow. Also good when there are flat sections of trail.

a similar width or wider skimo ski with light plastic boots and tech bindings is great for fast and light skiing on difficult/steep terrain in mixed to icy snow. (I think the 79mm width Salomon MTN 164cm would be exceptional for this type of skiing. it wont win races, but it would be fun. ...regulations require 160cm for men's skimo races anyway so the Plum would be great for that but have a harder time in less than ideal conditions). It would be best to use straight full length racing skins with notch tip attachment. Climbing is super easy with this setup...but feels more like walking when on a flat trail (although with the right snow, you do get some glide with mohair).

The skimo skis are expensive but they do go on sale. My wife has the Salomon X-Alp (now called the MTN 79) with tech bindings and Arcteryx procline boots. they turn well and cut through snow like butter. Its lightning fast going uphill...barely ever even need the heel risers. The quality, design, and performance is out of this world!

I will revisit this in a year or two since some who just bought the Xplore are saying it's the best thing since sliced bread and they are leaving their T4s at home and selling their NNNBCs.

Yes, the Nansen and skimo bindings/boots might be odd bedfellows, but it's intriguing when you read about people doing things like this https://www.utemagasinet.no/fjellski/gl ... 4ea255fd99. Plastic boot and skimo toe piece on the Ousland for one of the 2020 Expedition Amundsen winners... I guess it's all about intended use.

I've spent the last few years testing what a 185cm Nansen and the Stetind can do on the Norwegian hills around Trondheim and down in the bigger mountains near Oppdal, and the optimist in me would love a world where I could keep the Nansen weight and performance on the flats but lighten things up even further. (I also seem to be one of the rare people who really likes the Åsnes scale pattern with its emphasis on glide.) But ripping a binding out of the Nansen while heading downhill would not be a fun time.

This is all hypothetical for me though since the lightest skimo gear is so expensive.