New NTN Setup. Differences...

[tigerstripe40]

I started telemark skiing back in 2007 after a friend passed.
I've been running Garmont Ener-G boots that I had custom fit back in the day. They are really showing their age.
My setup has been the Ener-G's with Hammerheads on a PM Gear Bro 179 mid-fat ski.
The Ener-G's fit amazing. I'd describe the fit as 'like a finely made glove'. I have great control, excellent comfort. I really have no issues with the boots, aside from the liners perhaps being packed out.

This year, I decided to pull the trigger on NTN. I was disappointed at the dearth of boots available. Scarpa's fit my toes fine, but are too tight in the arch and heel. Scotts fit my arch and heel fine but are too tight in the toes.
I pulled the trigger on some Scott VooDoo NTNs, Bishop Chedi 184's with inserts installed and some 22 Designs Outlaw X.
Since I needed to have the boots custom fit, I mounted my Hammerheads on the Chedis, and rode with the Ener-Gs. I've skied better on this setup then I have ever telemark skied before, and love how everything felt.

I finally got the Scotts back from the boot fitter, and mounted up the Outlaw X.
The Scotts liners need to pack out a bit, as they are still uncomfortable, though, I will be calling the boot fitter today.
I also feel more 'forward' on the NTN setup and they are actually a bit stiffer than I like (and I was running the hammerheads in position 4).

Is the 'more forward' feel normal for NTN or is that just how new boots feel?
I am wondering if I can make the Outlaw X's more 'neutral' (I have the adjustment cap all the way back). Maybe flip the bolt at the front of the inner spring around?

[Montana St Alum]

IDK about Scotts, but both the Scarpa and Crispi boots have a fwd lean adjustment. I adjusted both one notch more upright and like it. I don't suppose the old liners will fit in the new boots, but you could check that. It didn't seem that Cripsi bellows softened much while Scarpas do. Maybe yours will. Do you have the Outlaw-x set at neutral - least active?

[turnfarmer]

I recommend checking the binding “deltal’ which is the difference between toe and heel heights. If they are different with your new and old setups this is likely the problem. Some people can adapt to anything and for some it can completely throw you off balance.
The other thing could be the internal boot ramp angle, but since the boots are from the same brand I am more suspicious of the bindings.

[tigerstripe40]

Skied the setup yesterday. I am getting used to the more forward lean and when it's too much, I just change the boot over to 'walk' mode for a bit.

The biggest issue here is the pressure on my little toe. I need the boots to be wider right about where the bellows is on the 'little toe' side. This is causing some difficulties for me. I get about 2 hours into skiing and my feet hurt too much to keep going then I have to swap out to the training heels.

I will be heading up tomorrow night and will try the old liners in the new boots to see how that works. If I can ski all night, then I know it's an issue with the new liners packing out and I'll just deal with it for now. If it's the same problem, I am going back to the boot fitters.

[Stephen]

I’m having pretty much the same problem (width / toes) with my TX Pros.
I did have them heat molded with my foot in the boot, and lots of packing around my toes, to try and get as much room as possible (I really like my toes to be able to wiggle).
That might have helped, but didn’t go far enough.
I had an experienced shop guy tell me that, as a last resort, he takes the lines out, places something hard inside the boot toe area (he would have access to specialized equipment for that sort of thing) and beat on the area he wants more room in until the foam basically breaks down — last resort.

You probably know this, but doing any stretching / punch out / heat molding in the bellows area is a bad idea, since it can permanently damage the boots.

When I pull the lines out of the boots, it seems like there is still quite a lot of foam thickness in the problem areas (maybe 3 to 5 mm?).

I am wondering if it’s possible to spot heat and compress small areas of the liner (like where I don’t have enough toe room) to get more space.
I’ve been ruminating on some way to do this.
I think it needs to be a pretty hard surface, both inside and outside, to clamp against the warm, soft foam and hold the clamping force until the foam cools — and then hope the foam holds that shape and doesn’t memory back to a thicker section.
Have some ideas, but not yet a clear plan…
If anyone has ideas / experience, would love to hear thoughts.

[tigerstripe40]

The TX Pros had plenty of room in the toe area (better than the Scotts) but the arch of my foot and heel was way too tight, so my Boot fitter advised the Scotts. Now if I could get the toe box of the TX pro with the arch and heel of the Scott I'd be golden.

I am half tempted to burn these Scotts in effigy, send the burnt out carcasses back to Scott with a note that says DO BETTER YOU CLOWNS and run my old Garmonts...

[tigerstripe40]

Skied the Scott Voodoo NTN boots tonight with my old Garmont liners. Feet hurt even worse. Took two runs then left the resort because it felt like I was going to throw up from the pain.

I think that maybe when the liners pack out they might work.
Maybe.

Wwyd?
Go to the bootfitter and have them work the boots until either the boots fit well or they refund my money?

Take it as lesson learned and forget it?

Burn the boots and ship back to Scott?

Give up on the free heel?

[Montana St Alum]

Given the difficulty of adjusting telemark boot dimensions in the toe area, I think it would be easier to adjust heel and arch fit. I went from Syner-G's to Scarpa Tx and I didn't see much difference, but of course, ymmv. It may just be time to return the Scotts if they'll refund your money.

[EvanTrem]

If you are still wondering about making the Outlaws more neutral, you can do this. Remove the end cap and take the inner spring out completely, this will bump the activity down considerably.

[tigerstripe40]

Given the difficulty of adjusting telemark boot dimensions in the toe area, I think it would be easier to adjust heel and arch fit. I went from Syner-G's to Scarpa Tx and I didn't see much difference, but of course, ymmv. It may just be time to return the Scotts if they'll refund your money.

The Syner-G's I have were custom fit a few years back. The boot fitter says those were a larger volume boot and they had a lot to work with. The Scarpas fit great in the toe but are too tight in the arch fit and so tight that with the boot as loosely buckled as possible, my feet started going numb after about 5 minutes in the boots. The boot fitters said that expanding the Scarpas in the areas I need them fit is not possible or at least extremely difficulty (this boot fitter has been in business for 40+ years and are the same ones that did an amazing job on my Syner-G's).

I had the Scotts at the boot fitters this weekend and they 'went for broke' and stretched where they could. In the shop, they feel better than before but I didn't get a chance to ski them yet.

I am not sure how returns will work on a boot that has been extensively worked and skied on 7 days so far.

Another shop suggested I go up a size in the Scarpas (to a 29 or a 29.5) and then have the liners in a demo pair cooked to see if I can get any comfort there.