0 degree base, 90 degree edge? And what tools?

[bark-eater]

I've got a bunch of skies to tune up this summer. I'm defiantly at the bottom of the learning curve. It looks to me that all the skies I have have no base bevel and 90 degree edges. I figure I should stick with that. The widest skis I have are Karhu XCD Extreme's. Is that a reasonable plan? Other thing is I'm looking for a good 90 degree edge guide that will hold a file or diamond sticks. I've seen some vintage ones on ebay that look a lot more solid than piece of aluminum angle stock and a spring clamp, but none are marked with an angle. Would it be safe to assume a file guide from the mid 70's is 90 degrees? Thanks, Woody

[fgd135]

At the simplest level, just a single tool:
https://www.tognar.com/fk-multi-edge-tuning-tool/
But if you don't already have these ski tuning tools, you'll need them at some point:
a true bar;
a base file;
a burr stick;
a file cleaner;
and a couple of misc. other items like ptex candles, etc., and a
steel scraper wide enough for the full width of the skis.
And, of course, a proper bench vise or other vise that will hold skis.

So you might look into a ski tuning kit.

[Montana St Alum]

IDK about your skis, but I'm guessing you're correct, 0/90 (or 0/0 as some designate). I usually change my side bevel to 87 (3), and to check that, I mark the edges with a marker (give it a couple minutes to dry) to see where I'm at as I file away edge. You could try that just to confirm that, when you go 90 for the edge, the marker ink is removed consistently.

fgd135's recommendation for equipment is spot on.
https://www.tognar.com/how-to-bevel-and ... ard-edges/

Here's a list of bevels for other brands:
https://www.evo.com/guides/ski-edge-bevel

[Manney]

Resurrecting an old thread to address an issue that came up elsewhere. Not enough written on this subject. Did a search, came up with this thread. Not much more than that… surprising given that base and side angles are very important things for metal edged skis.

Tognar link has great info… but no pics. People like pics. Makes it easier to visualize what’s going on.

First, quick summation of the basics. Two angles… the base angle (light green) and the side angle (dark green).

A zero degree base angle is how many, but not all, skis come from the factory. Some have a small amount of base angle… not very much though. Advanced recreational downhill skiers usually like a degree or two…. the steel edge remains free(er) of the compressed surface when travelling flat and straight, which makes the ski faster. Competitive skiers go for several degrees of base angle.

New skis come from the factory with 1-2 degrees of side angle… normally refereed to as 89 or 88 degrees of side angle. This gives good edge hold for most recreational conditions. Those wanting more hold can reduce the angle to 87 or 86. Not much to be gained past that unless you’re on the WC tour… then you don’t have to worry about it. That’s the tech’s job. Even then, it’s unusual to see base angles of more than 4/less than 86 degrees used unless the sport is GS.

Lots written about base and side angles. It’s a complete subject in itself. Not going to repeat all that because it’s mostly for competition, high performance skiing at the professional level.

Changing the base angle requires experience and specialized tools. It’s easy to screw up by nipping into the ptex beside the steel edge. Best leave that to the shop.

Side angle is easy to change… but realistically, that change can only go one way… from 89 or 90 to 88, 87, 86 degrees. The great thing is that the edge sticks out pretty far from the edge, so it’s much easier to “work”. All you need is an 8” “flat fine single cut file”** and one of these:

This is a Toko branded one. Swix sell them under their trade name too. Different colors, but all are marked with the angle to which they’re set.

These are the best guides because they are fixed. They’re a precision instrument, which is why they cost ~$50. The variable angle adjustable guides ($60 and up) aren’t as precise. Nor are they as durable. Many require specially sized files and stones, which makes them more expensive in the long run. Imho, side angle is kind of a set-it-once kind of deal for the recreational skier. Not a hard and fast rule, but a general one that makes like simpler.

This is how the file and angle guides work:

A spring clamp holds the file to the guide (a Bessey 1” spring clamp is an ideal size and retails for around $2).

https://www.bessey.de/en-us/bessey-tool ... -clamps-xm

The flat face of the guide follows the base of the ski. The file is smoothly drawn, from front to back, across the side edge… one direction only… until the correct angle is achieved. They best way to do this is by first coloring the side edge with a Sharpie marker (as mentioned by @Montana St Alum). When all traces of the marker are gone, the edge has been filed.

Lots of tricks and tips… these can be found in online videos. Stuff like using chalk, de tuning the tips and tails with a gummy stone, de burring the base edge, etc.

Recreational skiers find it daunting to set the base angle for the first time. It’s actually very simple, does wonders for the edge hold of the skis, and is followed up with honing (smoothing) using a diamond stone. A light pass of the file once a year is all that’s normally needed to freshen the edges… practically no material is removed freshening up the angle. It’s mostly deburring at that point. A few passes a season with a diamond stone will keep the edge sharp and highly polished. A polished edge is less prone to rust and pitting too… increases the life and enjoyment of the ski.

The whole rig (angle guide, file, diamond stone, gummi stone) costs about $100… about the price of three ski tunes. After that, the tools start paying for themselves. No waiting, obviously.

** Note: Bastard files are too coarse and remove too much material. A double cut file is gentler but leaves a rough edge, which will only need to be polished out later. There’s a whole language around files… American cut, Swiss cut, first pass, second pass etc. Don’t sweat the details too much. It’s not rocket science.

[Montana St Alum]

This makes the process easier, as the plastic sidewall of the ski will impede the action of the file.

https://www.rei.com/product/182963/swix ... bdf139d017

[Manney]

Good point. A lot of DH skis have sidewall material right up to the edge of the ski. This picture will illustrate the issue for ppl unfamiliar with what we’re talking about: (can see the swarf from the sidewall cutting tool in the upper left of the image)

A clearer view of a different sidewall trim tool in action: (higher end Swix tool with roller bearings)

Old school DH skis didn’t have this problem because the top sheets and sidewalls were painted, rather than encased in plastic or polyester typical of capped or sandwich construction.

BC skis vary. Some have a plastic or polyester cover or cap, others don’t. It’s a nice feature on a BC ski because it reduces the chance of sidewall damage when the skis inadvertently come into contact with each other. Less relevant for skis designed for groomed trails because the track or corduroy help prevent this.

A trim tool makes the job easier on such a ski… prevents plastic from fouling file teeth. It’s more of a nuisance… setting the edge angle takes more time… need to keep cleaning the file teeth with a brush (called a file card).

The irony is that a file capable of removing material from a steel edge has problems dealing with plastic. It’s all about the tooth orientation of the file. A fine toothed file just gets clogged by plastic… but a coarse tooth pattern would easily deal with the plastic but is too rough on the steel edge. A big plus is that a capped or sandwiched ski is more tortionally rigid… not a bad attribute for a BC ski. Just heavier.

Ppl who do this work themselves gain a much better appreciation of ski construction and materials. Comes in handy when buying skis because things like weight, flex, durability of a ski start to make a lot more sense.

Skiing is a journey of knowledge. Need to know something about weather, snow, grooming, slope, ski design, ski materials, tuning, wax, technique, style etc. Otherwise it’s a crap shoot.

[Bohemian]

Does anyone know what the factory side angles are for these skis?
-Rossignol BC100
-Aasnes combat nato
-Fischer Traverse 78
Or simply go for -1/89 degrees straight away on the sides for all of them?
Thanks!

[Manney]

NATO Combats come from Asnes with a side edge angle of 90 degrees. Checked mine against a 90 degree machinist square and 89 degree Toko angle gauge when I got them two years ago.

If you’ve skied your Combats a lot and haven’t touched them, the edges will be rounded off a bit. If you’ve hand honed them without a gauge, the angles might vary a bit along the length of the ski. No big deal… easy to correct.

88 or 89 degrees are reasonable side edge angle settings for a fjellski like the Combat (or Traverse, Rossi 100)… whichever side gauge is the best price at the moment. (The prices on these range wildly… everything from great deals to profiteering this time of year… once the snow falls, the markups are crazy high).

The primary goal with a BC ski is getting the edges free of rust, burrs and polished flat to minimize drag. A degree or two will help early penetration when edging the ski.

De-tuning the tips and tails with a gummy stone helps rotation and prevents the ski from feeling too edgy. It’s really not that big a deal with an 89 or 88 degree edge angle but it’s a nice touch. If you go this way, don’t hone the tips or tails during the season… just remove any burrs that appear on these parts of the ski.

Note: Lots added through the day to this post. Needs to happen when going from general theory to practical application for people new to tuning their own skis. Some may disagree on angles, but starting out small (1-2 degrees) doesn’t remove a lot of material and gives room in the future to try an extra degree or two. Hard to reduce angle after “going big”, however, without risking the removal of a lot of steel edge material.