Leather boot set up with best downhill control?

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JB TELE
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Location: San Juan Mountains, Colorado

Re: Leather boot set up with best downhill control?

Post by JB TELE » Fri May 20, 2022 11:04 pm

stilltryin wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 10:41 am
Regarding plastic boots: If you did not go to a professional boot-fitter and explain your situation, there may still be hope by way of such things as new liners/cooking liners.
I work at an outdoor gear store that sells a lot of backcountry and crosscountry ski gear in addition to many other things. I would consider myself a novice boot fitter. I've done a couple dozen foot molds for customers. I've also molded about 5-6 rental boots for myself trying to figure out the best fit, trying boots too big, trying boots too small, and somewhere in between. I eventually purchased a pair of scarpa T2's that seemed like they would be the best option for me.

The issue for me is that a plastic boot that's snug enough for secure downhill control puts too much pressure on the top of my left foot and I get a lot of pain in the muscles on the top of my foot. If I go any looser with the fit, my foot slides around too much causing arch pain and I have to really tighten down the buckles which puts uneven pressure on the top of my foot, causing the same pain issue. It seems like there is no fit balance between being too tight and too lose that won't cause issues. Also should mention that I started out this season in alpine boots and parallel turns cause extreme debilitating foot pain which was the motivating factor in switching to tele.

I've had issues with that foot in the past. I've been on backpacking trips where I put in too many miles and stressed out that foot. I ended up limping around in pain wearing soft trail running shoes but when I switched into flip flops in camp, there was no pain at all.

I'll give my T2's another try next season. The stock liners were too tight even after a mold and I tried some medium volume intuition pro tour liners that were a little too small for the shells but gave my foot more room, but my foot ended up sliding around in those too much. I may try the high volume intuition pro tour liners next year, which have a roomier toe box than the stock T2 liners. I have a wide forefoot which is a big issue with scarpa boots and I struggle to mold them out enough, but that's a separate issue from pressure at the top of my foot causing pain.

Either way, my goals are wilderness travel and using skis as winter backpacking tools and I've determined that the long process of learning to ski on leather boots will benefit me in the future. I've been motivated hearing about andrew skurka's ski portion of his long yukon trip, hearing about a guy who skiied the JMT in a backcountry nordic setup, seeing one of the freehill life guys ski some pretty steep stuff in leather boots and skinny skiis, and meeting some crusty old dudes who still shred in leathers. I've heard too many stories of plastic boots wrecking people's feet on long distance trips. If I can learn to get down moderate terrain in leather boots, even if I ski like a sissy with lots of long traverses and abrupt stopping turns instead of s-turns, the efficiency in touring will make up for it. I did an overnight ski trip this year with a lot of forest flat, rolling, and semi-steep drop offs and besides my T2's causing pain in my feet, it was a total slog. The entire time I wished I was in a backcountry nordic set up, I would have been kicking and gliding and having a much better time. Just need to figure out the downhill part.

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turnfarmer
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Re: Leather boot set up with best downhill control?

Post by turnfarmer » Sat May 21, 2022 9:01 am

Instep pressure is my nemesis.

Try this lacing technique for your problem foot-



As far as plastic boots, there’s a lot to be done- Buckle relocation, Tourwrap liners, Shell mods, thinner insoles are the places to start.

Scott/Garmont Excursions fit much wider than Scarpa 75mm boots.

Sometimes with a high instep you need to fit for that, see this article-

https://blisterreview.com/gear-101/boot ... -and-myths


As far as r performance boots, I don’t think anything modern compares to older Asolo Extremes or Merrill Ultras.
Extremes fit narrow.

These show up frequently on EBay, but the leather may be dried out and need attention or my not last long.



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wabene
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Location: Duluth Minnesota
Ski style: Experienced XX expanding BC
Favorite Skis: Apples to oranges
Favorite boots: Crispi Svartsen 75mm and Crispi Norland Hook BC
Occupation: Interior remodeling and custom finish work.

Re: Leather boot set up with best downhill control?

Post by wabene » Sat May 21, 2022 10:45 am

JB TELE wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 10:38 pm
fisheater wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 11:47 am
stilltryin wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 9:44 am
Can the cable/rods be removed/attached w/o taking skis off?
What is the weight difference with the Voile 3-pin cable?
The cable cannot be installed w/o removing the ski. If you mount the binding on a Voile riser, then you can hook to the Voile heel piece. In Michigan where my climbs are not sustained, but I have some interesting downhills, I have just skied with the cables attached. I use very little cable pressure, just enough for the heel piece to click in. The cable is very laterally stiff, it’s engineered differently than the Voile HW. It’s possible to kick and glide without really engaging the springs, but it is not nearly as efficient as the kick and glide w/o the cable connected
I have the voile traverse bindings on my alpinas which have the heel riser with the lip. I can hook the cables behind that heel piece. Can you not do that with the regular voile 3 pin bidnings? (no heel riser) Honestly if I had to remove the skis and take the cable off every time, that would drive me crazy.
Hey JB
I only have the Voile cable bindings, I have tried a friend's ski with the Rotte ST, but that didn't have cables. I'm happy with the Voile's and I found it pretty easy to take the cables on and off with the ski on just by lifting my heel. Also for shorter accents I just unclip the lever removing tension but the cable still stays on the back of the boot. I use the Crispi Svartsens and being able to quickly loosen the buckles for the up and tighten for the down is appreciated.



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fisheater
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Re: Leather boot set up with best downhill control?

Post by fisheater » Sat May 21, 2022 10:49 am

@JB TELE I have not come up with a method to put cables on a Rottefella Super Telemark binding without taking the ski off. You could put the cable on a Voile 3-pin cable without taking the ski off, but it would be easier to take the ski off. You can remove the cable from a Voile 3- pin without taking the ski off.
The Rottefella ST binding fits the thin duckbill on the Alpina Alaska far better. It is a night and day difference. The connection of the cable, which is actually a hardwire, to the binding on the Rotte ST is a much more laterally stiff connection than the connection of the Voile Hardwire binding/cable connection. The 3-pin cable, cable seems to be engaged. No matter how little you lift your heel, you feel the pressure of the cable. You can adjust a hardwire binding so you can lift the heel to a degree without engaging the cable. It’s isn’t zero pressure, but it is better than a Voile 3-pin cable type spring.
For me, the clamp on the Rotte ST is far superior to the clamp on the Voile 3-P for thin duckbills like the Alaska. The cable on the Rotte ST is far more laterally still than the cable at very light tension than even the Voile HW. I also prefer the binding mounted flat to the ski on skis less than 80 mm underfoot.
The Rotte ST cable is truly a revelation after many years on 3P- cable and 3P HW by Voile. I am really impressed. I do like Voile as a company. I like my 3 P HW better for my T-4 plastic boots. I am not disparaging anyone’s equipment. For me, I think the Rotte ST cable is the best option. I don’t continuously take cables on and off. I use them based upon conditions and terrain. It is easier to clip on and off the riser, which I do on my 86 mm underfoot skis and stiff leather boots.



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fisheater
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Favorite Skis: Gamme 54, Falketind 62, I hope to add a third soon
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Occupation: Construction Manager

Re: Leather boot set up with best downhill control?

Post by fisheater » Sat May 21, 2022 10:53 am

Hey @wabene How cold is the water up on the west shore of Lake Superior? My fish finder was reading 50 F on Lake Huron off Tawas Point last week. Boats with more sophisticated equipment Tolbert me it was in the low 40’s F 20 feet down.



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wabene
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Occupation: Interior remodeling and custom finish work.

Re: Leather boot set up with best downhill control?

Post by wabene » Sat May 21, 2022 11:00 am

I will add the duckbill on the Svartsens is thicker than the Alaska, pretty much the same as the Ski March, so maybe that's why I like the fit. @fisheater has much more tele experience than me and has extensive experience with both bindings, so factor that in.



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stilltryin
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Re: Leather boot set up with best downhill control?

Post by stilltryin » Sat May 21, 2022 1:25 pm

JB TELE wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 11:04 pm
...I did an overnight ski trip this year with a lot of forest flat, rolling, and semi-steep drop offs and besides my T2's causing pain in my feet, it was a total slog. The entire time I wished I was in a backcountry nordic set up, I would have been kicking and gliding and having a much better time. Just need to figure out the downhill part.
Yeah, T2 and switchback would not have been my choice for such. I save that set-up for a more "climb up to ski down" outing. Based on specifics, I would go with T3/Excursion and 3-pin cable (no experience with the ST cable) or maybe Alaskas with same. SB are 3lb/pair vs 1lb13oz for 3pc.



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Jurassien
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Re: Leather boot set up with best downhill control?

Post by Jurassien » Sat May 21, 2022 6:14 pm

stilltryin wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 9:44 am
Can the cable/rods be removed/attached w/o taking skis off?
What is the weight difference with the Voile 3-pin cable?
I have both of those bindings. I can’t tell you the weight of the Voilé, as it’s mounted (the manufacturer gives 810g). However, the Rottefella 75/Cable is as yet unmounted and I can confirm that the weight, including the plastic heel-plates and the 8 mounting screws, is 962g, (according to my kitchen scale) – which is EXACTLY the same as given on the Rottefella website.

Note that the Rottefella cable (rod) hooks from beneath and is inflexible, whereas the Voilé cable (spring) hooks from above and is significantly easier to hook/unhook. It drives me bonkers to have to fiddle with stuff when I’m on a tour, so the Voilé clamp gets parked under the lip of the Voilé riser heel-piece and the Rottefella lever will be clamped down under the short heel-lifter of a different Voilé riser.

Jurassien



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wabene
Posts: 131
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:53 am
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Ski style: Experienced XX expanding BC
Favorite Skis: Apples to oranges
Favorite boots: Crispi Svartsen 75mm and Crispi Norland Hook BC
Occupation: Interior remodeling and custom finish work.

Re: Leather boot set up with best downhill control?

Post by wabene » Sat May 21, 2022 8:19 pm

@fisheater yo Mr Fish I checked with a local who is a huge slayer of the finned sort and this is his report. 35-36 on the north shore and low 40's along park point.



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JB TELE
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Re: Leather boot set up with best downhill control?

Post by JB TELE » Sat May 21, 2022 10:33 pm

I've been looking Alico's website and they seem pretty ideal for my uses, especially the ones with the instep strap (heel slippage is a big issue for me). Are those boots still being produced? I can only find a few sizes on the telemark pyrenees site or used on ebay. If I decide to purchase used on ebay, can anyone give me an idea if they fit big, fit small, wide or narrow, high or low instep? That would increase my chances of a successful purchase. I have a wide forefoot, narrow heel, high instep, I mostly only wear altra shoes.

I found these on ebay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/324507681086?h ... BMwLysmp1g


On a brannock device my left foot measures 7 - 3/4 and my right foot measures 7.5. So a 41 should be about and 8 and in that size range but so hard to know. Is there a significant difference in support/downhill performance between their various models of boots? It looks like this one has the double liner, which is a bonus for me.

Any thoughts on hardwire vs cable bindings? Pro and cons of each for use with leather boots?



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