Leather boot set up with best downhill control?

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JB TELE
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Re: Leather boot set up with best downhill control?

Post by JB TELE » Sat May 21, 2022 11:24 pm

stilltryin wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 1:25 pm
JB TELE wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 11:04 pm
...I did an overnight ski trip this year with a lot of forest flat, rolling, and semi-steep drop offs and besides my T2's causing pain in my feet, it was a total slog. The entire time I wished I was in a backcountry nordic set up, I would have been kicking and gliding and having a much better time. Just need to figure out the downhill part.
Yeah, T2 and switchback would not have been my choice for such. I save that set-up for a more "climb up to ski down" outing. Based on specifics, I would go with T3/Excursion and 3-pin cable (no experience with the ST cable) or maybe Alaskas with same. SB are 3lb/pair vs 1lb13oz for 3pc.
Problem is there was a steep wooded slope at the start with some short very steep drop offs. And further into the route there were more short steep drop offs when crossing over creeks. But mostly rolling terrain without feeling the need to switch my switchbacks into ski mode. I need to learn to ski that stuff in leathers, even if its super slow and conservative with long traverses and tight turns. Forgot to mention I'm in south western colorado, not exactly flat around here but there are reasonable tours to be found if you look.

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TheMusher
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Re: Leather boot set up with best downhill control?

Post by TheMusher » Mon May 23, 2022 8:47 am

Just throwing in a question/suggestion regarding your Switchback.

I read someone on the forum that adjusted the switchback cartidges to emulate the tension of moving with simple 3-pin w/o wires.

IF possible, it would give fairly OK k&g performance for rolling terrain, while leaving room for more serious downhill action whenever needed.

I havent tried it myself, but in principle I dont see why it shouldn't work (unless it lacks the progressive tension?). Curious to hear if anyone has tried this.

Edit: @EarlS is the one that made an excellent post about this here.
http://www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=1136



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JB TELE
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Re: Leather boot set up with best downhill control?

Post by JB TELE » Mon May 23, 2022 11:50 pm

accidental double post
Last edited by JB TELE on Tue May 24, 2022 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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JB TELE
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Re: Leather boot set up with best downhill control?

Post by JB TELE » Mon May 23, 2022 11:50 pm

TheMusher wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 8:47 am
Just throwing in a question/suggestion regarding your Switchback.

I read someone on the forum that adjusted the switchback cartidges to emulate the tension of moving with simple 3-pin w/o wires.

IF possible, it would give fairly OK k&g performance for rolling terrain, while leaving room for more serious downhill action whenever needed.

I havent tried it myself, but in principle I dont see why it shouldn't work (unless it lacks the progressive tension?). Curious to hear if anyone has tried this.

Edit: @EarlS is the one that made an excellent post about this here.
http://www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=1136

Interesting, I'll have to give that a try. With my switchbacks in tour mode, I can kind of throw one ski forward and get some guide, but doesn't work that well.

I found some alico double boots on ebay and I'm hoping a really heavy boot like that can drive my voile hypervector bc's (123/92/108) in deep fresh powder while skiing conservatively/slowly on lower angle slopes. I'm currently living in Southern Colorado (San Juan Mountains) and we can get mega deep dry powder. The entire reason I bought the hypervector bc's was because I found myself sinking up to my knees in my alpina discovery 102's (102/64/87). The hypervectors are just enough float for touring and when going downhill I sink quite a bit but not so much that they nose dive and cause me to fall. If the hypervector bc's only end up being fresh powder skis when paired with leathers, I'm ok with that. But maybe I need to to split the difference between my 2 skis and get something in the 75ish underfoot range.

My general experience has been that skiing is soft boots is significantly easier in soft snow/powder and I had an experienced tele skier tell me that wider skis and leather boots work fine in powder, but that's still something I need to figure out for myself.



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greatgt
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Re: Leather boot set up with best downhill control?

Post by greatgt » Tue May 24, 2022 9:26 am

As people progress in Telemark they really free the mind....Same with cables....Unless your on lift served slopes most of the time bag cables.....and learn Telemark with slight pressure of feet in boots to get the classic Tele feel....Hard to do on Alpine boards and alpine type skis don't slice the bush any near as well...If your going toward Nordic.....get there as fast as you can and don't look back.....TM



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lowangle al
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Re: Leather boot set up with best downhill control?

Post by lowangle al » Tue May 24, 2022 11:58 am

JB, the hyper vectors will work with leather boots in soft snow, they just aren't as responsive. You may have a problem getting a leather boot work with the switchback binding, mine have always popped out. A brand new pair of stiff boots might work but I'd be prepared to get different bindings.

As far as boots go, I don't think a double boot will give you better control than the stiffest single boot, they will be warmer if you need that.



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JB TELE
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Re: Leather boot set up with best downhill control?

Post by JB TELE » Tue May 24, 2022 3:49 pm

lowangle al wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 11:58 am
JB, the hyper vectors will work with leather boots in soft snow, they just aren't as responsive. You may have a problem getting a leather boot work with the switchback binding, mine have always popped out. A brand new pair of stiff boots might work but I'd be prepared to get different bindings.

As far as boots go, I don't think a double boot will give you better control than the stiffest single boot, they will be warmer if you need that.
What do you mean about responsiveness? I'm very new to skiing. Do you mean springy camber?

Interesting about the bindings. Is that an issue with hardwire bindings, bindings with the toe garage and no pins, or just an issue with the switchbacks? Appreciate the info.

I definitely need the warmth for overnight trips and being able to remove the liner to dry is essential. I might see if my thin t4 liners fit into the alico doubles.



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fgd135
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Re: Leather boot set up with best downhill control?

Post by fgd135 » Tue May 24, 2022 6:39 pm

JB TELE wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 3:49 pm
lowangle al wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 11:58 am
JB, the hyper vectors will work with leather boots in soft snow, they just aren't as responsive. ...
What do you mean about responsiveness? I'm very new to skiing. Do you mean springy camber?
Well, what you're going to find with any leather tele boot v. almost any plastic tele boot is that leather doesn't allow precise lateral transfer of force, or much forward pressure, (lacking a stiff, high, cuff and tongue,) esp. with very wide skis. More than just a matter of the lack of leverage, due to a lower relative height, (which is also important,) leather boots are much softer than plastic due to materials and construction, even if they're somewhat reinforced, like those Alico doubles, with salpa panels; leather boots tend to roll laterally compared to much more rigid plastic, and will even lose stability over time as the leather breaks in and softens.
It's like riding on old bias-ply tires instead of modern belted radials... It's possible, with much practice and much enthusiasm, to control fat skis on moderate terrain, somewhat, with leather boots, in some conditions, but really, it's a bear. There's lag time when you initiate turns as the boots flex and yaw, for example. The use of cable bindings will help, but might not still transfer enough energy to turn well.
I've quite a bit of experience using leather tele boots, w/both many seasons of lift serviced turns, and have skied hundreds of miles with them on trails, carrying big and small packs, and sleds. In some situations that's a great way to travel, but I have doubts about being able to really control fat skis with them, comfortably and safely. Just my dos centavos.
Last edited by fgd135 on Wed May 25, 2022 5:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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JB TELE
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Re: Leather boot set up with best downhill control?

Post by JB TELE » Tue May 24, 2022 11:14 pm

fgd135 wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 6:39 pm
JB TELE wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 3:49 pm
lowangle al wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 11:58 am
JB, the hyper vectors will work with leather boots in soft snow, they just aren't as responsive. ...
What do you mean about responsiveness? I'm very new to skiing. Do you mean springy camber?
Well, what you're going to find with any leather tele boot v. almost any plastic tele boot is that leather doesn't allow precise lateral transfer of force, esp. with very wide skis. More than just a matter of the lack of leverage, due to a lower relative height, (which is also important,) leather boots are much softer than plastic due to materials and construction, even if they're somewhat reinforced, like those Alico doubles, with salpa panels; leather boots tend to roll laterally compared to much more rigid plastic, and will even lose stability over time as the leather breaks in and softens.
It's like riding on old bias-ply tires instead of modern belted radials... It's possible, with much practice and much enthusiasm, to control fat skis on moderate terrain, somewhat, with leather boots, in some conditions, but really, it's a bear. There's lag time when you initiate turns as the boots flex and yaw, for example. The use of cable bindings will help, but might not still transfer enough energy to turn well.
I've quite a bit of experience using leather tele boots, w/both many seasons of lift serviced turns, and , and have skied hundreds of miles with them on trails, carrying big and small packs, and sleds. In some situations that's a great way to travel, but I have doubts about being able to really control fat skis with them, comfortably and safely. Just my dos centavos.
My concern is needing something wide enough for deep powder. The hypervectors (123/92/108) seem like a bare minimum if I want to get out right after a big fluffy mega dump. The kind of dump where I found myself up to my knees in my alpina discovery 102's (102/64/87), barely able to move, and diving so deep on the downhill that I would abruptly stop and fall forward. I'm in the San Juan Mountains in SE Colorado and encountered that a few times last season. But you have a lot of experience, would you disagree with that?

My plan is to mostly ski on much skinner skis, but I still want something in my quiver for deep powder days. Seems like switching to a plastic boot would make more sense for that but since plastic boots murder my feet, I'm trying to avoid that as much as possible. I'm ok with skiing conservatively and making lots of traverses and stopping turns rather than going fast and making tight s-turns.



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TheMusher
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Re: Leather boot set up with best downhill control?

Post by TheMusher » Wed May 25, 2022 4:15 am

I did some research on the topic of leather + switchback earlier this year. Some of it is covered in the "light & agile tele" tread.

Basically came to the conclusion that users - like Al says - have experienced the boots disconnecting from the binding when using soft, traditional 75mm boots such as Crispi Bre, Alfa Greenland, maybe Alpina Alaska(?) and the likes.

On the other hand, with boots such as Fischer Transnordic, Alicos, Andrews, Lundhags Guide Expedtion are likely to work just fine. I personnaly tried the former with lift service on very aggressive icy downhill conditions, and the compatibility with SB was not an issue (but the boot was for other reasons - not recommended). I've now switched to Lundhags + SB.

Hence if you are considering for example Alicos with the SB in your inventory, I would absolutely not discard that idea just yet.

And if it doesn't work out against the odds, Rotte 75mm w/ cable is a cheap excellent alternative as already preached in this thread.

I do have little experience with really fat skis and super deep powder however..



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