Telemark Talk / Telemark Tips Forum

Hello fine folks on the forum,

Let's say, one was to plan a journey along the Continental Divide Trail - the whole thing - and wanted to maximize the (safest possible) time on snow through the corridor. When would this be, and what would be your preferred ski? Would there be different skis on different sections? Is there even snow most of the way? Time limit given six months.

I am sure, based on what I could find going though past posts, that there are plenty of folks that have the kind of experience on their local snow, which is required for such attempt. Perhaps someone has skied many areas along the divide.

Personally, coming purely from long-distance oriented Nordic backcountry touring background (Finland, Sweden, Norway and Sierra Nevada (California), I would imagine there are not as many route selection options to follow existing winter trails. However I do think the most technical bottlenecks could be avoided - if local laws and agencies permit slight detours off-trail but within the corridor? Maybe such a journey would require a bit wider skis to break trail and manage elevation instead of long forest planks. Xplore seems like the obvious choice, although I am yet to test it. Finally it has snowed at Ylläs where I am staying for a few months, and Lundhags stocked their Abisku Expedition Explore boots, which I already have on the way along with some Alaska XP, as Pioneer Pro is a bit late.

I have completed and planned some very long distances in the Nordics, but not this long. Having taken a closer look to the guys that made it through the PCT in winter - it did not impress me much (having skied through the Sierra on skinnies - although in springtime), other than by crossing avalanche territory in such amounts, and traveling such distance in such time. Which is my opinion of course, allowed the limited information, and should not be confused as even slightly an insult. They did make something happen that had not before been done. Standards of cold weather travel otherwise were quite low, given the injuries suffered. Also, not that much emphasis was on the long distance orientation, as was on downhill capabilities. Personally I prefer to somewhat easily survive the downhills, But ZOOOOM though the flats, including lower angled terrain where crampons are not needed. Along the divide however, challenges are definitely different. Why is there so little literature on nordic winter travel?

Gamme, Ingstad and Nansen seem the obvious contenders, especially as the North American field of telemark/Nordic skiers so seems to massively imply.

What are your thoughts?


Disclaimer:

I am interested in such a journey. However, I am extremely aware of the many different obvious and not-so-obvious challenges that would be faced when connecting such a line on the snow. There is no way, anyone should attempt this without proper preparations, research and training. Such issues that could be critical, can be quite local, and hence anyone attempting to plan, should not take the preparations lightly. Local training is always best. Within 5-10 years is the goal, if possible. This user thinks anything is possible, as long as someone is willing to make it possible. But as always, at the thought stage, everything is speculative and should not be taken to heart as arrogance. Let's keep fearmongering at bay, as it goes both ways.

I am willing to help anyone planning a long journey in Fennoscandia, to best of my ability. Would some of you be kind enough to share your North American wisdom?

I will state up front that i do not have experience in the Rockies that is relevant . But i think the larger question before getting to gear is whether there is a long enough period of snow on the ground for this to be possible; and indeed whether all portions of the route actually have snow cover at any time. The desert bits may not ever have skiable snow for all I know. What you should definitely look up is the "winter" PCT thru hike/ski done some years back. I put winter in quotes because they started in the fall. They walked some, snowshoed some, and skied some. Their gear choices will be useful info for you I am sure. Search for "winter PCT" and you will find a bunch of repotrs on their trip. Different conditions in the Rockies for sure, but still a good place to start.

https://andrewskurka.com/gear-list-back ... i-touring/

https://bedrockandparadox.com/2010/10/3 ... traverses/

https://bedrockandparadox.com/2019/01/1 ... ckcountry/

https://thingstolucat.com/ski-touring-equipment-guide/

Some blog posts with various opinions on ski gear for long distance traverses.

I live near the Continental Divide in Colorado and have skied up a few passes that lie on the Divide, but I have not really skied along the ridges that stretch out beyond the passes. In Colorado, the high country tends to be public land because it is so unsuitable for agriculture or residential zoning, so rerouting a bit is probably fine the majority of the time. Much of the Divide here is in the alpine tundra zone above tree line, and thus subject to harsh winds: our snow is so low-density that the windward side of a ridge gets blown clear of snow until it’s just talus/rock, and the leeward side forms dangerous cornices. South-facing slopes sometimes melt out as well. The best coverage and safest time to ski the highest areas is typically in the spring (April-May), and I would think something like the Voile Objective (though not warrantied for tele bindings) could be the right tool for dealing with the need for reasonable flotation and the inevitable wind slabs and sun crusts, all while keeping your rig relatively light for when you need to hike (say much of New Mexico or Wyoming’s Red Desert). It sounds like quite the ambitious undertaking but also a lot of fun!

paulzo wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 30, 2022 10:45 pm

I will state up front that i do not have experience in the Rockies that is relevant . But i think the larger question before getting to gear is whether there is a long enough period of snow on the ground for this to be possible; and indeed whether all portions of the route actually have snow cover at any time. The desert bits may not ever have skiable snow for all I know. What you should definitely look up is the "winter" PCT thru hike/ski done some years back. I put winter in quotes because they started in the fall. They walked some, snowshoed some, and skied some. Their gear choices will be useful info for you I am sure. Search for "winter PCT" and you will find a bunch of repotrs on their trip. Different conditions in the Rockies for sure, but still a good place to start.

Why I am getting to gear at this stage, is that I have done plenty of research already. This is me looking for a starting point with equipment, so I can focus more time on more probable types of skis, so I can cherry pick a few options before flying out to test them in local conditions at some point. Currently I have other gear-related tests going on, and I will put all of it through the ringer before any seriously challenging travel.

What comes to the winter PCT, they did in fact use equipment more suitable for steep and deep. However they also did choose their way through the highest of the Sierra for example - I on the other hand have skied a mixture of lower and safer alternates along the PCT, but climbed some passes. Sierra snow is also definitely different. Snow along the Divide may be closer to what we have in continental parts of Finland.

Trauma and Pepper did what they deemed most possible at their time and their location. They were a bit unlucky with the winter, whereas I in 2019 got to see some gorgeous near-record snowfall. Something like the CDT also has a long section without snow in the south. To me initially, it would make more sense to travel north - this is where the snow supposedly lingers the longest, and where one would encounter the most technical terrain. But as it is nearing the end of winter season at this point, travel would be safer.

This, of course, leaves the question of when to start, and from where to where there is going to be snow. Harsh environment hiking with not enough snow on the ground is nothing new to me. Snow-free areas would be quick to get through first. I have actually followed on an aquaintance of mine whom is hiking the CDT south at this very moment, and the winter season was just about starting in Colorado. Terrain seems good enough, but it does offer challenges as others have pointed out. I'll also have more mountain travel next year, as I will be hiking the PCT again early-season - skis were a logistical nightmare to bring along, although very much fun, so I am focusing more on training the technical aspects of snow travel and mountain climbing on the passes. Again, different snow, but all experience counts towards the goal.

Ending on the desert section going southbound would be the most depressing way to end such a journey, at least for me. If this happens to be the only reasonable way, then one has to deal with the anticlimactic ending. Point is, whatever needs to be done to maximize the chance of succeeding, would most reasonably need to be done as long as it does not involve completely abandoning the trail for roadside travel.

What I am referring to as not that high standards of cold weather travel, is more concering their routines, camp equipment, cookware. There are more efficient ways. Also, the ski equipment I think could be tuned more towards fast, light and comfortable by a team with experienced nordic backcountry skiers. I am happy to see the suggestions people have already made

JB TELE wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 30, 2022 10:46 pm

https://andrewskurka.com/gear-list-back ... i-touring/

https://bedrockandparadox.com/2010/10/3 ... traverses/

https://bedrockandparadox.com/2019/01/1 ... ckcountry/

https://thingstolucat.com/ski-touring-equipment-guide/

Some blog posts with various opinions on ski gear for long distance traverses.

I have actually encountered these articles plenty of times. To me it is interesting, that plenty of experiences from the North American users base on the less-secure options on NNNBC boots - is this due to availability? People used to BCD rather than BCX? There were also many warnings against NNNBC as a binding system. It has definitely not been made to withstand such extreme forces applied to a binding by skiing plastic boots downhill.

But with leathers, it is a very reliable system and I would be more worried about ripping the binding off rather than the front bar coming out. NNNBC offers much lighter, yet still stable boot options that are also more tuned towards distance and very cold weather travel. These options also include boots that do not wet out - heck, I have skied ankle-deep water on ice for many many miles. VBL liners work wonders to prevent moisture from your feet saturating the boot aswell. I am actually designing my own at this very moment, for commercial purposes. Rab and Exped liners are kinda bad and break down quickly.

But I do agree, having walked probably ~200 miles on my NNNBC boots in total, that it does suck. This is one more reason I would imagine Xplore taking the victory here. I cannot imagine taking a single step on rando/plastic boots. Duckbills are heavy, clunky, do not take crampons, and can break as likely as BC or XP boots

Bavarian Cream wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 31, 2022 12:02 am

I live near the Continental Divide in Colorado and have skied up a few passes that lie on the Divide, but I have not really skied along the ridges that stretch out beyond the passes. In Colorado, the high country tends to be public land because it is so unsuitable for agriculture or residential zoning, so rerouting a bit is probably fine the majority of the time. Much of the Divide here is in the alpine tundra zone above tree line, and thus subject to harsh winds: our snow is so low-density that the windward side of a ridge gets blown clear of snow until it’s just talus/rock, and the leeward side forms dangerous cornices. South-facing slopes sometimes melt out as well. The best coverage and safest time to ski the highest areas is typically in the spring (April-May), and I would think something like the Voile Objective (though not warrantied for tele bindings) could be the right tool for dealing with the need for reasonable flotation and the inevitable wind slabs and sun crusts, all while keeping your rig relatively light for when you need to hike (say much of New Mexico or Wyoming’s Red Desert). It sounds like quite the ambitious undertaking but also a lot of fun!

Great to hear experiences from the trail in Colorado!

It is quite tough as a foreigner to understand where to even dig information about what is permitted and what is not. So this is very valuable information. I have been thinking if it is possible to stay below the areas with wind-related snow issues such as the cornices and windblown clear sides of ridges you mention. To me more and more the snow conditions early in the season seem closer to what I have in my area.

Mostly staying away from the ava danger zones, my thinking leads to anticipate even medium length forest planks, or longer/wider nordic BC touring skis (210cm) would be good. Mind you, a light 250cm ski with no sidecut turns pretty easily in deep unpacked snow with a BC binding and sturdy enough leather boot, yet floats enough, although a bit longer even better. Xplore may enhance these abilities even further, but I am worried of the rather short screws they come with. I probably will resort to finding some longer screws to combat the binding ripping off. Also the longer the ski, the heavier it is to turn in snow, placing sometimes extreme forces on the connection. This is something I plan to test thoroughly this winter. I also have the FT62X for turns in open windpack/descending down to dreamy loose pow in the trees. These kinds of conditions typically last until March in my area. I would Imagine something comparable over at the Divide, but it is extremely helpful to seek advice from locals.

Definitely metal edges, don't get me wrong here it can be custom made. Also I have skied along testers of Xplore in the past, and they have been tested a whole ton. I also plan to ski through Norway lengthwise in the coming years, and also ski a ~1000km or 620 mile forest trail in the deepest winter. Something like this in the tundra also interests me. These trips are all better with different skis meant for the type of touring - here in my area, wider nordic tourers are mostly only used on unsupported wilderness area (tundra) tours on windpacked snow and the occasional snow dump, if not for telemark.

I would also appreciate some temperature/windspeed related real-life data from Colorado, if you would have any feedback? Over time, it has come more and more clear the estimates forecasts give you can be WAY off, even in historical data. I am used to dealing with -40°C/F, but usually not that much wind at these temperatures. I have close contact with plenty Finnish old time polar explorers, and they can definitely help me with even more extreme temp preparations if the windchill is deemed a reasonable risk. Currently I am also developing my own commercial layering system for ultralight nordic winter travel.

As it happens, Neptune is located in Colorado which is nice, if any skis are in stock. Maybe something could be arranged, when the snow begins carrying some more weight and if a change of ski is required. This transition period poses other issues with the stability of snowpack, and in this regard I possibly currently lack the most knowledge. I am used to avoiding ava danger, but in such an ambitious attempt one would be traveling quite a lot of danger zones regardless of detours. Local training comes in handy, and it would be especially useful to have contacts in the area to train with. Snow in Norway for example is much different - good training grounds, but there are so many things that can go wrong with only training in certain areas. This is why mountain guides are required to train in wide array of areas. The more you know, the better you can evaluate your choices. Most ava/glacier courses are in Norway for us Finns. Luckily a friend of mine is moving just 50 minutes away from Chamonix for work, so training in the Alps also becomes more affordable.

What comes to the Objectives you mention, the issue is most likely that it is way harder to keep edge on traverses with a lighter binding and boot, having that wide ski undefoot. Hence I would prefer something a bit narrower, but longer to keep me afloat. Although in deeper powder of course this is not a problem. Is there a typical time, when snow starts consolidating in the area?

Downhill performance-wise I am completely fine with kick turning down the slopes, side stepping or even climbing the most technical and steep passes. Where I can, I keep the speed and carve into the turns. Noticeable is that with a backpack this is a bit tougher, even with lighter equipment as many days of supplies are needed to be carried. I am just wondering if something that wide or long is actually needed in the southern snowy parts. Definitely not in springtime. Maybe the trip should rather be planned so, that the winter has already set in a while ago when entering snowy areas, giving more time on good snow, extending the journey to may/june when supposedly the snow could already be patchy.

Any feedback is appreciated - as stated, at this time, this is all speculation on my current knowledge base that may be a bit inaccurate and needs expansion. I especially would like to hear, if the flat areas along the trail are snow covered and skiable, as they tend to be at lower elevations than the ridges.

The Continental Divide & The Continental Divide Trail are 2 different things.

The Continental Divide Trail is popular with hikers & cyclists mostly during summer and could be another area to get info.

I don't believe people ski either one all the way through. As each one just goes through Summit County, Colorado, it would be difficult to ski the entire route.

And then there's the Colorado Trail too. Again, hikers and cyclists. Do people ski that whole thing?

Theme wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 31, 2022 5:28 am

But with leathers, it is a very reliable system and I would be more worried about ripping the binding off rather than the front bar coming out.

Anecdotally, because a sample of one disaster means nothing, but I've successfully lost a bar!





(Lundhags replaced both soles for me for nothing in about 48 hours.)

Musk Ox wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:36 am

Theme wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 31, 2022 5:28 am

But with leathers, it is a very reliable system and I would be more worried about ripping the binding off rather than the front bar coming out.

Anecdotally, because a sample of one disaster means nothing, but I've successfully lost a bar!





(Lundhags replaced both soles for me for nothing in about 48 hours.)

Oh crap that looks harsh. What happened? Was that packed snow in the underfoot grooves too tightly packed, and levered your front bar off? I have definitely come across that thought when I feel even the smallest bit of resistance underfoot. I hope the Xplore is better dealing with snow buildup

I did, once, have an older pair of out of the box Alfa boots that started breaking down in the sole. The glue in the front, between two rubber pieces opened up like there was never any glue. Right next to the bar.