V6 on firm

[jalp]

Not that there's anything wrong with gear questions but this is more of a gear specific technique question.

Last season I had this issue of washing out in turns in firmer conditions. I know that rockered tails aren't doing me any favors here. Soft powder conditions are fairly reliable around here but hard-pack happens. Pretty certain that I just need to adjust my technique a bit. This wasn't an issue for me with skis of flatter tail.

Specifically, the Voile V6 is my first ski with significant tail rocker. Although designed to favor soft snow, I feel like I should still be able to manage them a bit better even if in conditions slightly out of their niche.

Specs: 5'6” 150 lbs nek'd. Garmont Excursions. Voile V6 BC 173cm, Switchback X2. Tips and tails de-tuned to the point that they would still cut butter but won't chop wood. Terrain: Firm-ish over rocks/stumps/trees@20-30 degrees.

While it doesn't feel like I'm late to release the edges, that's the overall effect. I'll just hook up in a turn and wind up nearly stopped, and facing up hill with a “what just happened?” look on my face. I feel like I'm in balance and driving the rear ski. Edging? Weighting? Existential angst?...Maybe I've just answered my own question.

Thoughts, ideas, tips? Throwing this out there in hopes that someone says something that just kind of clicks in my mind.

Again, It's not a gear issue. It would be easy if it was, as gear is easily replaceable/exchangeable. It's most likely a me issue and fortunately/unfortunately, I'm stuck with me for the duration...

[Stephen]

Honestly, I had the EXACT same issue, just by chance with that ski.
Only I would end up falling over backwards!

There are many here who can give you advice based on decades of skiing — I’m not one of them.
What I can tell you is that I had the same problem on a different ski after that.
This was during my first few times on NTN (Meidjos and TX Pros) coming off of NNN BC and leathers.
I think you’re right that the ski is not the problem.
This was REALY frustrating for me — I felt completely incompetent as a skier.
Like I should just give it up.

But, I kept at it, and, at least for me, what I discovered, what got me past that, was realizing that even thought I thought I was weighting and edging and engaging my back foot, I wasn’t.
It took a few days to get past all that, but I have come to the point where I am now consciously SITTING on that back foot. Like my back leg is a stool and I’m sitting on it. Both skis are engaged, but really thinking about that back ski.
I’m using my back foot like I would use my front, downhill foot in Apline skiing.
I have no idea if I’m in “proper” form, but it’s working for me.
Something to try.
And it made me realize I had been using crappy technique with NNN BC and leathers, just dragging that back ski along for a ride. Did someone call it “Walking the dog?”

Will be interested to hear what others have to say…

[lowangle al]

It's possible that you have too much weight on the rear ski combined with not enough edge hold, due to the width of the ski on the hardpack. If you were centered better you may not get better edge hold but you won't spin around.

[Montana St Alum]

But, I kept at it, and, at least for me, what I discovered, what got me past that, was realizing that even thought I thought I was weighting and edging and engaging my back foot, I wasn’t.

This would be my guess as well. On hardpack, if you're a little bow-legged, with more edge on the rear and the right amount of weight on it, you can really get that rear ski to cut in.
While they're probably good for most of what you do, the excursion (two buckle?) isn't very powerful for pushing a 98mm underfoot ski on hardpack.

[Andinista]

Not sure if it's the same: V6 were my first skis with tip and tail rocker, on soft snow they felt like a shorter ski, they turned more than I was used to and sometimes I overturned. I blamed the early rise more than the tail, but I adapted to it and love them. When I changed the bindings for Meidjos I placed them a couple cm aft, but didn't notice a big difference. Today for me it's more a mental thing, if I'm not feeling fully confident and ski a bit defensively, I tend to struggle and occasionally overturn. I got the alpine heels and often use them just to gain confidence on the first few turns, when it's steep or variable. It works great. And when it doesn't it's probable because the conditions are more suited for alpine (yes blasphemy... forgive me...)

On firm snow it's a different story, I've always had issues when I take some speed. The V6 are not for that, and another older pair that I thought was good for firm snow, well, wasn't. So I recently got a pair of Kendo 88s for resort skiing, and my life changed. I can carve fast turns with less effort and enjoy the resort as never before.

[Montana St Alum]

While it doesn't feel like I'm late to release the edges, that's the overall effect. I'll just hook up in a turn and wind up nearly stopped, and facing up hill with a “what just happened?” look on my face. I feel like I'm in balance and driving the rear ski. Edging? Weighting? Existential angst?...Maybe I've just answered my own question.

Just to be clear, is the rear ski skidding out?

[lilcliffy]

My two cents-
Disclaimer- while I frequently use the Telemark turn- I would not consider myself an expert Telemark skier, with respect to it as a distinct downhill skiing discipline.

My two cents-

A skier should be able to complete linked turns with either-
- the downhill ski fully weighted
- the uphill ski fully weighted
- one ski more weighted than the other
- both skis evenly weighted

Yes- the "by-the-book" Telemark turn is supposed to be made with both skis evenly weighted-
but, that doesn't mean that a skier cannot complete a linked turn if they are not evenly-weighted.

I regulary make turns that are not evenly weighted- often intentionally weighting one or either skis more than the other, and often at different points in the turn.

And when I go to the local lift-served resort, I often practice turns with one or the other fully-weighted (i.e. I make turns with the rear ski fully-weighted, as well as the lead ski), as well as practice the monomark.

I have no real idea what is up with you- without watching you ski-
and please forgive me if you are an expert downhill skier and I am insulting you!

I'll end with a couple of questions-

Are you facing down the fall-line throughout your turns or are you following your skis?

Are you skiing on groomed hills and used to using conventional parabolic all-mountain alpine skis?

[lilcliffy]

Perhaps the short effective edge of the V6 on hard-pack is bringing out your personal "bad" habits (we all have them!)

[Stephen]

It's possible that you have too much weight on the rear ski combined with not enough edge hold, due to the width of the ski on the hardpack. If you were centered better you may not get better edge hold but you won't spin around.

This could also be it. Maybe I / you had the rear ski too flat. Especially if your boots are less supportive.
I was skiing TX Pros, which would be more supportive.
Truth is, I don’t know for sure what my problem was, I just know that when I started putting more emphasis on the back ski, the problem went away, so maybe I just needed more edging to solve the problem. But, actually getting more weight on the back foot did seem to improve things.

My two cents-

A skier should be able to complete linked turns with either-
- the downhill ski fully weighted
- the uphill ski fully weighted
- one ski more weighted than the other
- both skis evenly weighted

I agree with this.

Are you facing down the fall-line throughout your turns or are you following your skis?

Doing this would tend to spin you around.

[lowangle al]

I just noticed you're skiing excursions. I ski the T4 with the ultravector and it's not enough boot for firm resort snow. But that doesn't explain why you spin out. It's obvious that you aren't getting enough edge on that rear ski. When the rear ski isn't working properly it affects the lead ski. Now neither one of your skis is carving and you probably get a little spread out too. So you are either catching the tip of your lead ski and 'hooking" around or your weight is too far back and your tails are washing out.

The cure for this easy, GET CENTERED. It is the most important thing, and yet it eludes many, even after years of skiing.
Don't confuse being centered with having equal weight on your skis, there is no direct correlation there. By tightening up your stance and adjusting body position there is a magic spot where you won't be thrown either forward or back but are securely "centered"