Telemark Talk / Telemark Tips Forum

Slightly off topic, but I’m curious if anybody recommends a good, breathable, very packable soft shell for backcountry XCD skiing. I have two from years ago that suck - not breathable enough, too heavy, way too bulky to be worth bringing on any trip. So I’ve been using Gore Tex as my outer layer. It’s an OR Foray with pit zips that go all the way down to the hem so it works pretty well for very cold, windy, and/or snowy conditions. But I’m contemplating trying a new, light soft shell (but would still bring the GoreTex as backup).

I’d like one that is very light, very packable, VERY breathable, preferably with a hood, and with some ability to keep me dry when it’s snowing. I see multiple offerings from OR, Rab and others. Oh, and I wouldn’t want to spend more than $150 or so.

Anybody have one they like that meets my (perhaps unrealistic) expectations?

Thanks.

EDIT - as posted posted below, I bought the Rab Borealis. I’ve now used it a few times and I’m quite happy. I used it on one outing that was not very cold (upper 20s and cloudy) and had only a thin wool layer under it. I got warm, but up-doing the zipper and pushing the sleeves up to my elbows helped. I did not have to take it off. If the sun was out, I would have had to take it off no doubt. Another outing (this morning!), it started at -2F. I had the same wool layer and fleece layer and I was comfy. Eventually got a little warm but removing one hat and buff around my neck and lowering the zip half way seemed to do. It was 19F when I got back to the car. So it seems sufficiently breathable for me, but, again, I’m not someone who runs super hot. And it packs down small when I do take it off. The only thing that would make it better would be mesh vents in the pits. I think Mont Bell made one like that years ago, but I’m not sure they make it anymore.

I have tried for years to find it, but apparently breathable . windproof jackets do not exist. I am curious about the Goreware products...they make so many claims about breathability I almost want to believe them, but don't. zippers do not count as the source of breathability. if Man can make desalination membranes, you would think they can make a breathable jacket.

in this forum, it will take exactly 3 replies to direct you to wool( and possibly canvas)

Unrealistic. The more breathable it is, the less water/windproof it is. Just the nature of plastic. I don't trust this technology. That said, the best (and also cheapest, lightest, most packable) rain jacket I have ever used is Frogg Toggs' line for backpacking. Everything else I have tried while hiking resulted in horrible clammy wet feeling inside--OR, Mtn Hardware, Patagonia, Lowe Alpine. The Frogg Toggs are definitely not very durable, but a set of uppers and lowers cost like 25 bucks last I checked. And has a hood.

bauerb wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:52 am

in this forum, it will take exactly 3 replies to direct you to wool( and possibly canvas)

Wool is my preferred material for clothing, but it isn't windproof at all. Waxed canvas is what I usually wear for outer for wind and rain protection. Everything else I own is wool--socks, underwear, base layers, pants, shorts, tshirts, button down shirts, hats, etc.

Edit: worsted wool is more windproof. Forgot about that option. Think US Postal Service pants of old.

I use a soft shell hooded jacket by Mountain Equipment. 'Mission Softshell Jacket'
https://www.mountain-equipment.co.uk/co ... ion-jacket

curiously, this item is only available from EU sellers.
and I did order from Europe, because the weight of fabric and other features seemed like the best for my backcountry uses.

I up-sized mine, to give room underneath for a 200 wt fleece and sometimes a pertex/primaloft vest.
It's really a great jacket.

(I also have one, un-used, in size L. that I would sell for a good price. FYI. I originally bought the L, but then re-ordered another in XL, to be roomy enough to layer over fleece/vest. Just in case you would be interested.)

So despite manufacturer claims, the “soft shell” material has not improved much, huh? I find the ones I have are sufficiently warm, wind and water resistant, but no more breathable than my hard shell and take up way too much room in my pack when I need to take them off. I was hoping the latest ones are better.

I agree that wool is great for layers, but not outer layers (except maybe in true spring conditions).

So @bauerb @mca80 - are you using a hard shell for severe conditions?

corlay wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:07 am

I use a soft shell hooded jacket by Mountain Equipment. 'Mission Softshell Jacket'
https://www.mountain-equipment.co.uk/co ... ion-jacket

curiously, this item is only available from EU sellers.
and I did order from Europe, because the weight of fabric and other features seemed like the best for my backcountry uses.

I up-sized mine, to give room underneath for a 200 wt fleece and sometimes a pertex/primaloft vest.
It's really a great jacket.

(I also have one, un-used, in size L. that I would sell for a good price. FYI. I originally bought the L, but then re-ordered another in XL, to be roomy enough to layer over fleece/vest. Just in case you would be interested.)

Thanks, but that looks pretty heavy and not so breathable. Have you compared it to a hard shell? How well does it pack down?

When I used to do downhill at resorts in alpine gear I would wear a Lowe Alpine hardshell. Nowadays the only use it gets is when snowblowing the driveway and paths through the yard. Now that I am learning telemarking, I will need to see how it goes, but I suspect I will wear what I usually wear, a few layers of wool, regardless of weather conditions. Perhaps a lightweight cotton/wool mix or the Frogg Toggs rain jacket in the pack just for a little extra wind protection going downhill. I just looked it up, I think theyre 12 bucks off the amazon. It really is a great jacket for what it is and what it costs.

I've got something not a million miles away from this

https://www.gore-tex.com/en_uk/outerwea ... rmo-jacket

It's a Gore Infinium running jacket, which is useful on warmer days and... it's OK, I guess. I think it's breathable. It's light. But it's not massively warm, and the second you stop you need to get out the insulation.

It's good for running, it keeps the wind out, but it's not massively waterproof and it has very 'open' fabric under the arms.

bauerb wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 06, 2023 9:52 am

I have tried for years to find it, but apparently breathable . windproof jackets do not exist. I am curious about the Goreware products...they make so many claims about breathability I almost want to believe them, but don't. zippers do not count as the source of breathability. if Man can make desalination membranes, you would think they can make a breathable jacket.

I agree. Gortex doesn’t work either. Works in other applications (like hiking, cycling). Just not this one.

The best practical solution, in my view? Zippers… under the arms, in the back, all the way down in the front (ie. no anoraks). More important than the material used.

Merino, as a base or intermediate layer, is unbeatable*. It wicks, it transpires, it retains warmth. Would I wear merino as an outer layer? I have, in milder (0 to -5C). And it is far more comfortable than a manmade shell. Would I do it colder than that? Nope. Because it has to be exceptionally dense to block the wind. That translates to weight and breathability issues.

Canvas has some advantages that aren’t apparent to some folks. Its advantages are wind resistance, spark resistance, durability, and customizable waterproof options. Does it have disadvantages? It can be heavy, stiff and doesn’t breathe significantly better than synthetics.

Materials selection is always about use case. Some materials can be dreadful in XC or XCD but superb in DH. Some materials can be dreadful in very cold conditions but brilliant in cool conditions.

Just as many of us have not found the perfect boot or ski, none of us are likely to find one universal material that works for an outer layer.

I spend more time thinking about clothing before each session than wax selection. But maybe that’s just me…

* I have about $2k in NZ merino base and intermediate layers, with weights ranging from 100-260 gsm. Also have a 300 gsm hoodie that can serve as an outer layer at a very narrow time of the year. The point here is that one has to make careful decisions on merino based on weight… it’s not a “one and done” material.