Telemark Talk / Telemark Tips Forum

Kool. I really liked the 1941 video. I always wondered what they were up to at the time. Pretty wide, long and straight skis. And that binding system, no free pivot, the “relief hitch” was more like a telemark mode I’d say! Low cut boots, good for touring, probably not much support, but then less likely to break your legs.

The rest of that series also came up on YouTube, military ski techniques. All snowplow, stemming, skidding, stem christy, and pivot your skis in the air. They didn’t really depend on the sidecut so much, or reverse cambering the ski. A tele turn would’ve helped in deep snow.

DG99 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:57 pm

Kool. I really liked the 1941 video. I always wondered what they were up to at the time. Pretty wide, long and straight skis. And that binding system, no free pivot, the “relief hitch” was more like a telemark mode I’d say! Low cut boots, good for touring, probably not much support, but then less likely to break your legs.

The rest of that series also came up on YouTube, military ski techniques. All snowplow, stemming, skidding, stem christy, and pivot your skis in the air. They didn’t really depend on the sidecut so much, or reverse cambering the ski. A tele turn would’ve helped in deep snow.

Keep in mind that a military ski is built for a different use-case than recreational skiing. It’s an alternative to marching in the snow. Only it’s done by marginally-trained infantrymen carrying very heavy packs, weapons etc. (Skiing is just another skill to learn after weapons handling, field craft, manoeuvres, parachuting, driving military vehicles, etc.).

No pretence of speed, just mobility across snow. Durability and reliability are major features, trumping sliding performance for many militaries.

Quite unlike movies, where skiers are swooping down hills while firing their MP 43s, Tommy Guns, or PPSh-41s. That is Hollywood bullshit, good for entertainment or propaganda purposes.

Hot dogging a tele turn, while carrying mortar bombs and live anti tank weapons, would likely earn a solider a foot up the ass from an unimpressed Senior NCO. And that’s if they didn’t blow a knee or break a leg, thereby slowing down the section/platoon/company.

Which is another form of “kickin it old school”.

For your enjoyment, the rest….

GrimSurfer wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 17, 2023 8:22 pm

DG99 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:57 pm

Kool. I really liked the 1941 video. I always wondered what they were up to at the time. Pretty wide, long and straight skis. And that binding system, no free pivot, the “relief hitch” was more like a telemark mode I’d say! Low cut boots, good for touring, probably not much support, but then less likely to break your legs.

The rest of that series also came up on YouTube, military ski techniques. All snowplow, stemming, skidding, stem christy, and pivot your skis in the air. They didn’t really depend on the sidecut so much, or reverse cambering the ski. A tele turn would’ve helped in deep snow.

Keep in mind that a military ski is build for a different use-case. It’s an alternative to marching in the snow. Only it’s done by marginally-trained infantrymen carrying very heavy packs, weapons etc. (Skiing is just another skill to learn after weapons handling, field craft, manoeuvres, parachuting, driving military vehicles, et.).

No pretence of speed, just mobility across snow. Durability and reliability are major features, trumping sliding performance for many militaries.

Quite unlike movies, where skiers are swooping down hills while firing their MP 43s, Tommy Guns, or PPSh-41s. That is Hollywood bullshit, good for entertainment or propaganda purposes.

There are several similarities between the skis shown in the first two videos, the latter one (Erna Low 1:20, 2:40) showing where metal edges were added something you can see in the first where they lacquer the skis (7:38). The 1920s version in the second video look quite similar to the 1941 video. Perhaps you could point out the differences between 1941-era skis, military vs civilian. I also noticed many early 20th century woodies have a "beak" on the ski tip, which I presume is for lashing climbing skins.

What also caught my eye in the first video (1941 Army) was him using his foot to remove the skis. Looks like "clamp" storage system to preserve ski camber. I've seen other devices for skis and boots of that area to effect similar.

On the olive drab note...
First U.S. Army mountain ski unit is formed at Fort Lewis on November 15, 1941
The 87th in WA was followed by the better known 10th Mountain in CO (86th, 85th), which had the advantage of being able to fire rounds (live or blank), per the article.

3:02


For balance, here's 1940s film of Russian "Ski Troops" in training, attacking in boots then evacuating the wounded via sleds.

and


While modern militaries may have specialized ski gear, I'd venture in 1941 it was too novel and too short on (R&D + manufacturing) time to use anything but civilian gear with limited adaptations.

TallGrass wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 17, 2023 8:59 pm

GrimSurfer wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 17, 2023 8:22 pm

DG99 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 16, 2023 7:57 pm

Kool. I really liked the 1941 video. I always wondered what they were up to at the time. Pretty wide, long and straight skis. And that binding system, no free pivot, the “relief hitch” was more like a telemark mode I’d say! Low cut boots, good for touring, probably not much support, but then less likely to break your legs.

The rest of that series also came up on YouTube, military ski techniques. All snowplow, stemming, skidding, stem christy, and pivot your skis in the air. They didn’t really depend on the sidecut so much, or reverse cambering the ski. A tele turn would’ve helped in deep snow.

Keep in mind that a military ski is build for a different use-case. It’s an alternative to marching in the snow. Only it’s done by marginally-trained infantrymen carrying very heavy packs, weapons etc. (Skiing is just another skill to learn after weapons handling, field craft, manoeuvres, parachuting, driving military vehicles, et.).

No pretence of speed, just mobility across snow. Durability and reliability are major features, trumping sliding performance for many militaries.

Quite unlike movies, where skiers are swooping down hills while firing their MP 43s, Tommy Guns, or PPSh-41s. That is Hollywood bullshit, good for entertainment or propaganda purposes.

There are several similarities between the skis shown in the first two videos, the latter one (Erna Low 1:20, 2:40) showing where metal edges were added something you can see in the first where they lacquer the skis (7:38). The 1920s version in the second video look quite similar to the 1941 video. Perhaps you could point out the differences between 1941-era skis, military vs civilian. I also noticed many early 20th century woodies have a "beak" on the ski tip, which I presume is for lashing climbing skins.

What also caught my eye in the first video (1941 Army) was him using his foot to remove the skis. Looks like "clamp" storage system to preserve ski camber. I've seen other devices for skis and boots of that area to effect similar.

On the olive drab note...
First U.S. Army mountain ski unit is formed at Fort Lewis on November 15, 1941
The 87th in WA was followed by the better known 10th Mountain in CO (86th, 85th), which had the advantage of being able to fire rounds (live or blank), per the article.

3:02


For balance, here's 1940s film of Russian "Ski Troops" in training, attacking in boots then evacuating the wounded via sleds.

and


While modern militaries may have specialized ski gear, I'd venture in 1941 it was too novel and too short on (R&D + manufacturing) time to use anything but civilian gear with limited adaptations.

Nobody doing Stemm Christies with 90 lb packs. The first video shows basic mobility in hardship conditions carrying massive packs. That is what soldiering is about, mostly.

When vehicles are not available, light infantry needs to move everything… tents, stoves, sleeping bags and air mattresses, cam nets, food (4000 cal a day, miniumum, in MRE form… which is lighter than the canned food in WWII), ammo, mortars, rifles and machine guns. So much shit that you don’t really want a ski with a lot of side cut.

Whatever binding you have must work with a soldier’s existing environmental footwear. No changing to combat boots… that doesn’t happen in combat. It might in training, where you’re keeping things easier for troops learning how to ski for the first time.

The Russian film shows, in very constrained terms, fire and movement in snow. Not a lot of skiing onto the objective, ha ha.

A current 1948 Lift. Some tele' shown.
"It’s so old school at this ski mountain that snowboarding isn’t even allowed. And that’s not all — they have one of the last single-chair lifts in the country."


Same location (MRG).

GrimSurfer wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 17, 2023 9:22 pm

Whatever binding you have must work with a soldier’s existing environmental footwear. No changing to combat boots… that doesn’t happen in combat. It might in training, where you’re keeping things easier for troops learning how to ski for the first time.

My hunch, based on what I've seen of the 10th Mtn, is they "went with what they had, not what they wanted," at least for training. In that clip one soldier talks about having to move his feet all night to keep them from freezing. IIRC, cold-weather gear started coming into its own during the Korean War for the U.S., and soldiers just had to "make do" and or "improvise" with what they had available. If I pulled up 1941 kit, I'd expect to see WWI/II-esque boot gaiters supplementing ski "boots".

What a special place. Thanks for posting.

Amazing skills by the ski patrol.

TallGrass wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 17, 2023 9:24 pm

My hunch, based on what I've seen of the 10th Mtn, is they "went with what they had, not what they wanted," at least for training. In that clip one soldier talks about having to move his feet all night to keep them from freezing. IIRC, cold-weather gear started coming into its own during the Korean War for the U.S., and soldiers just had to "make do" and or "improvise" with what they had available. If I pulled up 1941 kit, I'd expect to see WWI/II-esque boot gaiters supplementing ski "boots".

You hunch is right, you just need to move it forward to at least the 70s (15 years after Korea).

My dad was in the Canadian Army. His unit was assigned to the NATO rapid reaction force, which deployed to N. Norway every winter for training.

The Canadians were instructors for other NATO forces up there. Why? Because they had more cold weather experience than even the Scandinavian countries at the time (it gets cold up there but nothing like the Canadian Arctic because the Gulf Stream actually adds warmth (and BIG snow) to Scandinavia. The Gulf Stream is pushed away from Canada by the Labrador Current, which flows out of the polar region. The Gulf Stream eventually turns into the North Atlantic current, but still retains a lot of heat).

Any doubts? Look at the mean minimum of Iqaluit in February (-44C) versus Tromso (-5C), even though Tromso is 300 miles closer to the North Pole. Both coastal cities. One under the influence of the Labrador Current, the other the Gulf Stream.

My dad would often say that the US had the best logistics, lift, and weapons… but atrocious cold weather gear. The American soldiers would suffer up there because of it. The Danes (whose possessions include Greenland) and Norwegians had no issues with gear or fieldcraft. It was their backyard. Germans, French and Italians… varied.

I’m pretty sure all of that changed in the 80s and 90s when the US really embraced global expeditionary warfare. There are just too many smart folks and enough money in the US military to hammer that nail flat. IDK this for certain, as my dad retired in about 1980 but it’s a responsible assumption based on a career in the military myself.

I spent 34+ years in the navy, so didn’t deploy in that capacity with the US military.

GrimSurfer wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 17, 2023 9:43 pm

TallGrass wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 17, 2023 9:24 pm

IIRC, cold-weather gear started coming into its own during the Korean War for the U.S., and soldiers just had to "make do" and or "improvise" with what they had available.

You hunch is right, you just need to move it forward to at least the 70s (15 years after Korea).

For WWII era, here's some historians talking about Battle of the Bulge cold-weather clothing with examples shown.


This looks to be early Korean (1951-'53), though not likely widely issued in '51 based on reports of inadequate "WWII clothing" being used. From: https://academic.oup.com/milmed/article/180/9/1017/4160657
The first looks like M1948 Trigger Finger Mittens and Shells, and the second N-4B Flyer Mitts (aka Monkey Paws), both leather palmed. Either are still available today via surplus stores and ebay, new and used. The wool TFM liners are nice and I've worn wool liners for D-3A gloves (late WWII intro?) under them before. The Flyers are nice to pull on/off, and the loop for a tether is such that the tip of the mitt points up or sideways when hanging, versus the open cuff that'd collect snow.



By 1958 there was the
N-3B "snorkel" Parka.

For feet the U.S. Mickey (Mouse) and Bunny Boots date to Korea and there's mentions of welts for military skis, but this would be post-WWII.

Interesting article on the pre-development of the N-1B Mukluk circa 1943, thus not available for 1941 U.S. Army mountain divisions.
https://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/33786-mukluks-the-often-overlooked-cold-weather-footwear/