I could turn last week, but not this week, maybe next week?

[John Dee]

I started going to the lifts to practice. The first time was at Bolton. I found the cold, groomed snow to be workable. The problem I had that day was getting ball of my foot pressed down with the Alico Ski Marches, so I actually had a better time with the Alfa Guard and Ingstads. I feel like the Ski Marches are starting to get better.

Something happened at Mad River Glen today. I stayed on similar, beginner slopes. I was tired, and I only went because I had a non refundable ticket. I started on the Guards and Ingstad based on my experience at Bolton, but the lack of grooming seemed to make it a chore. The slopes were much more skiied out than I thought they'd be. I went to the Ski March and E109's, and skiied on this most of the day. However, I felt like I was still doing a lot of parellel turns. An observer might have said I was doing a telemark with one leg, and a parallel turn with the other.

Probably, I was just not in shape or state of mind to hold the telemark stance on both sides. There are the things I've been wondering about:

How much upward bounce is necessary to release the edges and transition? I've been thinking about this all season. On groomers and in fresh snow, when evenly distributing my weight, and pointing downhill, it seemed ok. It just wasn't working at MRG today.

What is the hallmark sensation of telemark turns? "the book" says to differentiate a telemark or parallel turn by whether the downhill or uphilll ski is leading. However, it seems possible to freeze a telemark turn into a parallel turn. I imagine the answer is to face downhill and do a continuous, groovy thing with the hips. I have occasionally felt like I'm swinging like a pendulum, maybe more continuous or flowing than alpine technique?

Seeing telemarkers on the slopes and backcountry, and youtube, they are doing way less turning than I thought. I actually thought that telemark trails were snowboards going straight down the mountain. I'm not ready to do that kind of dance with trees, but it seems like they're putting a lot more power into their skis to turn so slightly.

[Montana St Alum]

Something happened at Mad River Glen today. I stayed on similar, beginner slopes. I was tired, and I only went because I had a non refundable ticket. I started on the Guards and Ingstad based on my experience at Bolton, but the lack of grooming seemed to make it a chore. The slopes were much more skiied out than I thought they'd be. I went to the Ski March and E109's, and skiied on this most of the day. However, I felt like I was still doing a lot of parellel turns. An observer might have said I was doing a telemark with one leg, and a parallel turn with the other.

Probably, I was just not in shape or state of mind to hold the telemark stance on both sides. There are the things I've been wondering about:

How much upward bounce is necessary to release the edges and transition? I've been thinking about this all season. On groomers and in fresh snow, when evenly distributing my weight, and pointing downhill, it seemed ok. It just wasn't working at MRG today.

What is the hallmark sensation of telemark turns? "the book" says to differentiate a telemark or parallel turn by whether the downhill or uphilll ski is leading. However, it seems possible to freeze a telemark turn into a parallel turn. I imagine the answer is to face downhill and do a continuous, groovy thing with the hips. I have occasionally felt like I'm swinging like a pendulum, maybe more continuous or flowing than alpine technique?

We all have good days and bad days. You'll have good days again.

How much upward bounce is necessary? The answer is, "whatever it takes". Telemark is fairly complex. Skis, terrain, snow conditions and amount, even whether you had a good BM that morning contribute to what is needed. I'd say that if you can dial it back to the minimum necessary, you'll save considerable energy, but other than that, "it depends".

Telemark turns are like porn. It's easier to differentiate good turns with videos than with still pictures.
It's largely semantics, but I tend to think of "outside and inside" skis in turns rather than "uphill and downhill" skis. If I go from a right turn to a left turn, particularly in steep, or bumpy terrain, my right ski may come forward while it's still the uphill ski. It'll always be the outside ski in the turn, but it goes from being the uphill ski at the start, to the downhill ski at the end of the turn. This visualization can be helpful to understand what the skis are doing.

"However, it seems possible to freeze a telemark turn into a parallel turn." That's the "still picture" Vs. "video" version, but that's really not the case. If you stop motion in connected telemark turns, you'll have a moment when neither knee is dropped and the skis are parallel, but I'd say (at least in my case) that there is never a moment when I'm turning in an alpine stance, except maybe coming up to the lift at the end of a run when telemark turns are just not necessary. And the points when I'm parallel turning are completely segregated from the entirety of the runs that I'm making telemark turns on.

"...swinging like a pendulum". Man, if I had a dollar for every time I heard a woman say that! Well, I'd be broke, but that sounds like you have a good rhythm going (another phrase rarely heard)!

Press on.

[bauerb]

and like all good porn, good telemark turns are hallmarked by...oh wait..

I grew up skiing Mad River. that place can make you tired just looking at it. surviving that place without getting hurt or breaking equipment is enough of an accomplishment. I've also run trail races up/down that mountain in the summer, its not any better.

the thing is: lots of people can make a tele turn on a groomer...the grooming hides mistakes in technique. but ungroomed steep trails full of rocks, trees, moguls, ice, dirt, mud, abandoned tractors, small cars, and whatever else is under Mad River snow...those conditions will give you an honest evaluation of your skillset in a hurry. for what its worth, I never liked the place, even back in the 80s when it still snowed.

[Montana St Alum]

and like all good porn, good telemark turns are hallmarked by...oh wait..

It's truly humbling to admit I missed that one!

[John Dee]

If I go from a right turn to a left turn, particularly in steep, or bumpy terrain, my right ski may come forward while it's still the uphill ski.

So you mean that you are still powering the edges through the turn while undergoing the transition? Because if one foot passes in front of the other than you must be transitioning.

"However, it seems possible to freeze a telemark turn into a parallel turn." That's the "still picture" Vs. "video" version, but that's really not the case. If you stop motion in connected telemark turns, you'll have a moment when neither knee is dropped and the skis are parallel, but I'd say (at least in my case) that there is never a moment when I'm turning in an alpine stance, except maybe coming up to the lift at the end of a run when telemark turns are just not necessary. And the points when I'm parallel turning are completely segregated from the entirety of the runs that I'm making telemark turns on.

"...swinging like a pendulum". Man, if I had a dollar for every time I heard a woman say that! Well, I'd be broke, but that sounds like you have a good rhythm going (another phrase rarely heard)!

What I meant is to switch from a telemark to a parallel turn late in the turn. This is done by simply digging in your edges and giving up on making an arc. This is what Telemark Tips calls the "Sneaky Parallel Turn".

and like all good porn, good telemark turns are hallmarked by...oh wait..

I grew up skiing Mad River. that place can make you tired just looking at it. surviving that place without getting hurt or breaking equipment is enough of an accomplishment. I've also run trail races up/down that mountain in the summer, its not any better.

the thing is: lots of people can make a tele turn on a groomer...the grooming hides mistakes in technique. but ungroomed steep trails full of rocks, trees, moguls, ice, dirt, mud, abandoned tractors, small cars, and whatever else is under Mad River snow...those conditions will give you an honest evaluation of your skillset in a hurry. for what its worth, I never liked the place, even back in the 80s when it still snowed.

I didn't really ski it, so it that's not even the issue. I didn't even ride the single chair.

I'm going to push back a little and say that I think that groomed skiing may be a fair thing to ski on with nnnbc or 3 pin. You can say packed powder is more of a test, but I think it might be futile. Groomers still took effort, and I crossed my skis quite a bit. What is easy to hide here is overweighting the downhill ski, but I was overweight the uphill ski mostly. That is why my tips would cross... What I really want to do is stop falling and crossing the tails because that is brutal to the topsheet.

[Montana St Alum]

If I go from a right turn to a left turn, particularly in steep, or bumpy terrain, my right ski may come forward while it's still the uphill ski.

So you mean that you are still powering the edges through the turn while undergoing the transition? Because if one foot passes in front of the other than you must be transitioning.

No. Skiing across the hill at the end of a right turn, I release the edges, slide the uphill ski forward to transition, and then re-engage the edges. The edges are not engaged during the transition.

The are advocates of a variation on this (an early lead change) where the timing is slightly different, but I'm not one of them.



What I meant is to switch from a telemark to a parallel turn late in the turn. This is done by simply digging in your edges and giving up on making an arc. This is what Telemark Tips calls the "Sneaky Parallel Turn".

I think it's unnecessary and counter-productive to transition between telemark and parallel in the midst of a turn. Unnecessary because the telemark turn has plenty of power. Finishing with a parallel turn is a fault in technique, as far as I can see. Counter-productive because it just adds an element that slows the transition while adding nothing useful. Finishing in a parallel turn is just what is done while trying to learn NOT to do it. There's nothing wrong with making parallel turns - it's a useful tool. Just use them exclusively, or telemark turn exclusively, as that applies to single turns.

[randoskier]

@John Dee Wow Mad River! My parents had a house in Warren VT when I was a kid (on the road to Lincoln Gap). We skied S-Bush which was a bit snobby- Glen Ellen 2600ft vertical! (now part of S-Bush) and to bust our balls- Mad River, which had a single-chair back then (like Vogel in Slovenia still does). Glen Ellen was great and non-commercial shame it went bust and got snapped up. Is the Blue Tooth bar/nightclub still there on the Sugarbush access road? Warren Zevon's future wife was a waitress there, that was a wild place. The Mad River Valley is the best part of the Eastern seaboard.

[JohnSKepler]

Snow conditions are everything. Everything.

[John Dee]

@randoskiier Warren is just a little outside of my regular rotation. I reserved a day at Mad River because this Noreaster was supposed to land in southern Vermont, but it turns out we got a similar load upwards of Stowe. I've started going regularly to Camel's Hump and to Stowe, but not Mt Mansfield itself. My goal is to ski Mt Mansfield and Hunger Mountain, both of which look steeper than what I've been skiing.

I learned that you can skin up two trails on Mt Mansfield for free after 4:30pm, Perry Merril and the Toll Road. And here, I thought the Toll Road was a road that you could ski up anytime. I've only gone halfway up the Toll Road because some locals sent me to the Notch Road first. At least I got my dog out for a walk that way. Its funny how Stowe is the only area around here with free uphill policy.

I went to Bolton yesterday and it was dreamy. Conditions were soft in the sun and swishy. The trail under the short mid mountain lift is called Beech Seal. One side is used for the slalom course, and the other side is just a little steeper. The slalom side is just perfect for me on NNN BC, the other side is too steep. I should have given it a go this time, but I didn't.

I attached the cables to the Ski Marches and found it didn't help me any. I still can't telemark on steeper stuff without fresh snow to plow through.

[spopepro]

The other comments are good--but I'd also like to add that when skiing nordic backcountry skis like the ingstad or e-109 you have to *commit*. If you're not carrying some speed and really weighting them in the turns the center of the ski won't stay attached and you'll have that washing out feeling. In looser conditions it matters less because the deeper snow means the whole edge stays in contact even if you're not fully compressing the camber. In that case, your mental game can be more of a factor than anything physical.