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I think of a "telemark turn" as being "staggered parallel" whereas what I'm doing is more of a "staggered snowplow" which for simplicity's sake I'm calling it a "Lambda" because, well, just look:
Blue for left ski/turn.
Red for right...
I look at the Lambda as a stepping stone to tele' same as the snowplow/wedge is to parallel in alpine, and both are a way to respectively control speed where side-slipping and or "hockey stops" aren't as well suited.
I also see the tip of the trailing ski coming over the top of the other ski in this video where the guy is FAR better at telemark than I, which leads me to believe there is or can be "a little bit of Lambda in every tele' turn." https://telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5927
A Stem Christie is a wedge/snowplow to initiate a turn then brings the inside ski in parallel or slightly forward due to the uphill ski requiring a knee bend to articulate. By contrast the inside (turn) ski in tele' lags behind.
The Stem Christie keeps the skis essentially parallel throughout, not staggered like tele' aside from the moment when you switch which foot leads.
Also, the Stem Christie alternates the edge used by the ski on the inside of the turn: Inside edge when in snowplow/wedge, outside when when parallel.
As far as what the edges do in a Tele' or Lambda turn, I'd say the outside (turn) ski uses the inside/inner edge, while the inside-turn ski... well... discuss!
I look at the Lambda as a stepping stone to tele' same as the snowplow/wedge is to parallel in alpine, and both are a way to respectively control speed where side-slipping and or "hockey stops" aren't as well suited.
Your comments?
It depends on what kind of ski you are using.
If the skis you are on have enough sidecut by themselves, a "staggered parallel turn" works great.
If your skis are fairly straight, and you want to create more sidecut, the "lambda" creates a virtual sidecut between the two skis, that helps you turn faster than just the ski sidecut itself would accomplish.
Re: Terminology: The "Lambda" Tele' Turn
Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2023 6:21 am
by fisheater
It really is just the Tele version of a Stem Christie. I’ve been calling it a Stem Tele for years, just to relate it is the Tele version of a Stem Christie.
It’s a basic building block in the way downhill skiing has been taught, since European ski instructors came to the States.
Really no good purpose in renaming the turn.
Re: Terminology: The "Lambda" Tele' Turn
Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2023 9:04 am
by Manney
Agree with fisheater… it’s a ~Stem Christie transition to a tele.
Re: Terminology: The "Lambda" Tele' Turn
Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2023 9:08 am
by Montana St Alum
I also think of it as a stem christie. I think it can be a useful tool in skiing set up bumps to scrub speed quickly, at least in one application.
I'm not sure if I can describe its use in this context very well, but if I'm in a left turn (for example - right ski leading) coming to the top of a bump, if I slide out the right ski a bit and then "check" with application of the edge, that will slow me a bit, or at least stop the acceleration. Because the left ski isn't parallel to the right, it might have a 10-20 degree "head start" on the right turn coming up, as it slides forward for the lead change.
I don't use it much, but when I need it, it's nice to have in the tool box.
Re: Terminology: The "Lambda" Tele' Turn
Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2023 9:29 am
by Manney
Freeze frames are deceptive… can make any transition look like form. Dithers the line between good, bad, effective, ineffective, skilled, slack. Even falling gets its own term… ~jacket skiing. Still falling. Not skiing.
Re: Terminology: The "Lambda" Tele' Turn
Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2023 2:59 pm
by TallGrass
This is a little long, but it's trying to tease out what each ski is doing, what each edge is/isn't doing, how skis are oriented to each other, and so on.
Skis: Parallel or Wedge
Skis: Even or Staggered
Left Ski Edge: Inner, Outer, or Neutral (flat or off the ground)
Right Ski Edge: Inner, Outer, or Neutral (flat or off the ground)
If you're good at math, you can see 36 combinations (P/W * E/S * L-I/O/N * R-I/O/N... 2 * 2 * 3 * 3). Let's come back to this later...
I also think of it as a stem christie. I think it can be a useful tool in skiing set up bumps to scrub speed quickly, at least in one application. ... if I slide out the right ski a bit and then "check" with application of the edge, that will slow me a bit, or at least stop the acceleration. ... I don't use it much, but when I need it, it's nice to have in the tool box.
Yet is it though? What we "think", "feel", "call" something can be misleading, even the opposite to what is actually going on.
For example, many people "think" to get a bicycle/motorcycle to turn Left, you turn the handlebars to the Left, when in fact you turn them to the Right ("countersteer") in order to get it to lean in, requisite for a turn. Some even say you "steer below 8mph" and "countersteer above 8mph" but have no explanation of what you do AT 8mph thus the paradox of "how does the bike know which way to turn and how much at 8mph?" (Truth: you countersteer at all speeds, they just don't notice it until around 8mph, then conflate 'feeling' with measurement.)
Various Turn Types:
Parallel Turns
Carving Turns
Snowplow/Wedge Turns
Telemark Turns
... Dolphin, Jump, Kick, etc.
Stem Christie??? While we rightly pay a lot of attention to the direction each ski is pointing (relative to skier and slope), what is just as important (and possibly more so, especially on hard pack and if can do a Sliding 360-Spin down the fall line keeping both skis in contact) is what the edges are doing.
Parallel Turn: in a right turn, both inside-turn edges (left-inside, right-OUTSIDE) bite Snowplow & Stem Christie: in a right turn the left-inside & right-INSIDE edges bite, the former turn turning and the latter braking
Brief segway... Javelin Turns
I'd never heard of these until today, though I was doing something similar (doing Parallel Turns lifting the inside-turn ski off the ground to ski on one ski) playing around last week, I just didn't cross the raised ski over, or over much.
Folks don't even agree on what a proper Javelin Turn is (I personally look at it as varying degrees of stretching).
(Sorry about the info-mercial voice...)
(Sorry about the pre-school music...)
(Better, but where's my Rave Ball...)
So...
in a RIGHT TURN... Parallel Turn: right-OUTSIDE edge bites Snowplow & Stem Christie: right-INSIDE edge bites Javeline Turn: NEITHER edge (of the right-side ski) bites
Now...
in a RIGHT TURN... Telemark Turn: (what are the edges doing on the right ski?) Lambda Turn: (what are the edges doing on the right ski?)
If the skis you are on have enough sidecut by themselves, a "staggered parallel turn" works great.
If your skis are fairly straight, and you want to create more sidecut, the "lambda" creates a virtual sidecut between the two skis, that helps you turn faster than just the ski sidecut itself would accomplish.
So, could it be thus:
in a RIGHT TURN... Telemark Turn: PARALLEL* skis; right-OUTSIDE edge bites (BOTH edges turning/carving) "Stem" Tele' Turn: WEDGE* skis; right-INSIDE edge bites (braking, while the other ski turns/carves) Lambda Tele' Turn: WEDGE* skis; right-OUTSIDE edge bites (BOTH edges turning/carving)
* Outside ski leading, in contrast to Alpine where skis are nearly even or inside ski/knee leading
To revisit...
Skis: Parallel or Wedge
Skis: Even or Staggered
Left Ski Edge: Inner, Outer, or Neutral (flat or off the ground)
Right Ski Edge: Inner, Outer, or Neutral (flat or off the ground)
If you're good at math, you can see 36* combinations (P/W * E/S * L-I/O/N * R-I/O/N... 2 * 2 * 3 * 3). Let's come back to this later...
to the right Telemark Turn: P S LI RO "Stem" Tele' Turn: W S LO RO Lambda Tele' Turn: W S LI RO Javeline Turn: P E LI RN, or W E LI RN
* Those math-inclined might notice there will be mirror images in those 36 thus it can be reduced where L and R are combined (e.g. P E LI RO and P E LO RI is the same technique, just different directions... Parallel right turn and Parallel left turn). That still leaves open the possibility of ! 18 ! different stances, some of which are disastrous (P E LI RI is Snowplow, while P E LO RO will...).
Re: Terminology: The "Lambda" Tele' Turn
Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2023 3:11 pm
by Manney
Starts out similar to the PSIA Skills Concept… direction of skis, angle of skis, pressure of skis. Then the five fundamentals…
(I personally look at it as varying degrees of stretching).