I'm trying to teach my dog to skijour this winter. In preparation for this I need a pair of skis that doesn't have metal edges. The dog friendly trails at my local nordic center are mostly un-groomed and if I'm getting a new pair of skis I would like them to work at least okay on softer conditions as well. I've been looking for skis that will have decent off trail and un-groomed manners, but also will still fit in tracks okay for the times I am on groomed trails. I've currently got skis with 75mm bindings, but if needed due to the limited options may get a different binding setup.
The options that I've been able to find availible in the US so far are:
Madshus Panorama SF 62 :This is the non-metal edge version of the standard panorama 62. This seems like the most appealing option for cost and function and is flat mounted so is 75mm compatible.
Asnes Finnmark 54: Another decent option, but Neptune currently only has the skin version available. These are also the most expensive and definitely pushing the limits of what will fit in a track.
Fischer Adventure 62: This seems like it would be a great option except that is has IFP binding plates so I'd be forced to get new boots. I'm also concerned about the IFP binding options (if anyone has any experience with these I'd be super interested to know about them)
Alpina Control 64: These also look good but have the same IFP binding issue.
I think Rossi might also make a plate mounted binding that fits my needs, but I'm not sure.
If anyone has any experience with these or other recomendations I would be supper appreciative. Thanks!
Skis without metal edges recomendations
Re: Skis without metal edges recomendations
The Madshus would be the most appealing to me… partly because of my longstanding reluctance to buy any ski that any manufacturer has “bundled” with a plate or binding.
The Madshus is reasonably wide, so great if you’re skijoring in the backcountry. If you’re on groomed trails, something narrower would be faster… easier step turning at speed. They’re comparable to my Combat NATOs tho, which work well for me in the back country (84 62 74, steel edged, maybe a tad less camber).
A lot depends on your ski partner. If your dog is a breed that pulls and has good endurance, it probably won’t matter. If it’s more of a lighter weight, faster running animal, then it might enjoy a faster ski.
Another consideration is you… you’ll be stuck with the skis if your dog doesn’t take to it. Training may not be as regular as solo skis. You’ll want to get very comfortable on your new skis before adding your dog to the equation… it will be easier on both of you.
But yeah, the Madshus look good from my side of the keyboard.
The Madshus is reasonably wide, so great if you’re skijoring in the backcountry. If you’re on groomed trails, something narrower would be faster… easier step turning at speed. They’re comparable to my Combat NATOs tho, which work well for me in the back country (84 62 74, steel edged, maybe a tad less camber).
A lot depends on your ski partner. If your dog is a breed that pulls and has good endurance, it probably won’t matter. If it’s more of a lighter weight, faster running animal, then it might enjoy a faster ski.
Another consideration is you… you’ll be stuck with the skis if your dog doesn’t take to it. Training may not be as regular as solo skis. You’ll want to get very comfortable on your new skis before adding your dog to the equation… it will be easier on both of you.
But yeah, the Madshus look good from my side of the keyboard.
Go Ski
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mca80
- Posts: 1010
- Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:24 pm
- Location: Da UP eh
- Ski style: Over the river and through the woods
- Favorite Skis: Nansen, Finnmark, Kongsvold, Combat NATO, Fischer Superlite, RCS
- Favorite boots: Crispi Bre, Hook, Alpina 1600, Alico Ski March, Crispi Mountain
Re: Skis without metal edges recomendations
I ski Finnmarks regularly. By "skin version" what do you mean? The Neptune website lists the regular model in stock, which is a sintered waxable base with insert holes for x-skins, if desired.
It is an excellent ski. You are correct in that it stretches the limit of tracks. If I take it to a high caliber nordic center I step out of the tracks for all turns. If I use it at my local volunteer-groomed trails, I step out for some of the sharper turns but generally don't worry too much about the gradual ones.
Your timing is unfortunate, Neptune had both waxable and waxless at 100 bucks off this spring. Consensus, though, is that Asnes' waxless pattern isn't nearly as good as Fischer's.
Other options you can consider are totally detuning edges, or 3/4 edge skis. Personally, my dog is old and isn't learning new tricks and is a goof, so that's why I got the Finnmarks. Also, they're pretty fast for this class/dimension of ski, and they can handle ungroomed snow well, so long as it isn't really deep.
Hope that helps.
It is an excellent ski. You are correct in that it stretches the limit of tracks. If I take it to a high caliber nordic center I step out of the tracks for all turns. If I use it at my local volunteer-groomed trails, I step out for some of the sharper turns but generally don't worry too much about the gradual ones.
Your timing is unfortunate, Neptune had both waxable and waxless at 100 bucks off this spring. Consensus, though, is that Asnes' waxless pattern isn't nearly as good as Fischer's.
Other options you can consider are totally detuning edges, or 3/4 edge skis. Personally, my dog is old and isn't learning new tricks and is a goof, so that's why I got the Finnmarks. Also, they're pretty fast for this class/dimension of ski, and they can handle ungroomed snow well, so long as it isn't really deep.
Hope that helps.
Re: Skis without metal edges recomendations
"not as good as fischer" is underselling it. I am finally in the acceptance stage of my WL ingstads. I first thought "this isn't as bad as people say" then "stupid *#&#$* skis herringbonning up every gd slope" to "maybe these actually are good for a very particular kind of tour" to "man, this sucks... shouldn't have done this" to "just don't buy asnes WL skis".
Re: Skis without metal edges recomendations
The groomers at both these places need to stop track-setting curves. They should lift the sled about 10 yards before and after curves. Corduroy only around curves is the proper way to do it unless the radius is huge.
Go Ski
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mca80
- Posts: 1010
- Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:24 pm
- Location: Da UP eh
- Ski style: Over the river and through the woods
- Favorite Skis: Nansen, Finnmark, Kongsvold, Combat NATO, Fischer Superlite, RCS
- Favorite boots: Crispi Bre, Hook, Alpina 1600, Alico Ski March, Crispi Mountain
Re: Skis without metal edges recomendations
I agree. The local volunteer place lifts for some curves not others. The nordic center, which so far as I know is fairly close to world class, lifts some but not others. Not being a classic xc racer I don't understand the reasoning or why some and not others.
In any case, thanks @spopepro for clarifying re the asnes waxless. Was just trying to be fair while expressing the minimum of what I have seen here. Odd how a company can get such negative response while a competitor consistently gets praise, and not figure out how to emulate. Even weirder is that Neptune in USA is stocking more and more Asnes waxless models to the exlusion of waxable bases. Sounds like bad business to me, but what do I know.
Re: Skis without metal edges recomendations
Unfortunately, most track setting today puts the skating lane between two sets of classic tracks. This prevents track setters from selecting what is called “the best line” for the tracks. The best line increases the effective radius of the turn, which reduces edge drag and promotes higher speed.
This is what you’ll typically see on a race course, as some XC racing standards include mandatory classic, mandatory skate, and freestyle zones. Lots of politics surround the reason why this is done but it’s mainly about preserving heritage of XC and encouraging broad athletic skills.
Recreational clubs don’t need to worry about FIS rules. But they try to cater to both styles of skiing without taking on the burden of dedicated pistes for each style. Call it economics.
A good recreational track setter will manage things by choosing where to lay tracks and where not to lay tracks. Things like curve radius, presence of hills, corner camber will be considered by ppl who know what they’re doing. Even conditions can play into it, as track setting wet snow before a cold snap will beat the shit out of skis and make the tracks utterly useless (zero grip, even with skins).
Everyone else will just raise the sled when they return to the clubhouse. More of those people than pros tbh, which explains my preference for classic skiing in the skate lane when it’s not convenient to get into the backcountry. Harder to screw up corduroy but some groomers even do that at an expert level.
A good rule of thumb is “does the track setter ski?”. If they go out before setting tracks, there’s a good chance they’ll understand the conditions and course better than some guy with a John Deere hat and bib overalls who drives a tractor in the off season.
This is what you’ll typically see on a race course, as some XC racing standards include mandatory classic, mandatory skate, and freestyle zones. Lots of politics surround the reason why this is done but it’s mainly about preserving heritage of XC and encouraging broad athletic skills.
Recreational clubs don’t need to worry about FIS rules. But they try to cater to both styles of skiing without taking on the burden of dedicated pistes for each style. Call it economics.
A good recreational track setter will manage things by choosing where to lay tracks and where not to lay tracks. Things like curve radius, presence of hills, corner camber will be considered by ppl who know what they’re doing. Even conditions can play into it, as track setting wet snow before a cold snap will beat the shit out of skis and make the tracks utterly useless (zero grip, even with skins).
Everyone else will just raise the sled when they return to the clubhouse. More of those people than pros tbh, which explains my preference for classic skiing in the skate lane when it’s not convenient to get into the backcountry. Harder to screw up corduroy but some groomers even do that at an expert level.
A good rule of thumb is “does the track setter ski?”. If they go out before setting tracks, there’s a good chance they’ll understand the conditions and course better than some guy with a John Deere hat and bib overalls who drives a tractor in the off season.
Go Ski
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mca80
- Posts: 1010
- Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:24 pm
- Location: Da UP eh
- Ski style: Over the river and through the woods
- Favorite Skis: Nansen, Finnmark, Kongsvold, Combat NATO, Fischer Superlite, RCS
- Favorite boots: Crispi Bre, Hook, Alpina 1600, Alico Ski March, Crispi Mountain
Re: Skis without metal edges recomendations
Times last winter I didn't understand why local recreational area tracks were set given the forecast. Became an ice rink. Also corresponds to my prior statemement. Swix guidelines didn't apply. You couldn't get grip without klister, period, despite it being ideal for blue grip wax.
Re: Skis without metal edges recomendations
Swix waxing guides and publications go into this level of detail. There’s only so much that can be written on the packages of a stick or brick. Here’s an entry level manual published by Swix a few years back…
https://cache.tradeinn.com/images/pdf/m ... repair.pdf
This was for recreational waxing only. The pro manuals have a crazy amount of detail, temp/humidity graphs, etc.
It’s also the reason for a snow thermometer. Because it’s the snow temp that counts… air temp is for “civilians” only, because that’s what’s available to most people (and often the reference temp is recorded at airports… tens of miles away and often far from hills and tree lines). Again, recreational stuff like this…
Club stuff starts with this kind of thing…
Pro gear is insane. Reference level instruments. Portable infrared waxing tables., etc.
The interesting thing is that Swix references all of its waxes to “shade” temperature. This will be different than snow temperature in the sun etc. But reference temperatures (like at airports and weather stations) are measured this way too. Not taking this into account isn’t a huge deal for glide wax… but it can massively affect grip wax performance.
Even still, my skis react differently if the chosen glide wax isn’t ideal. My speed, even in the backcountry, suffers. Not by a huge amount, as more effort can make up for a minor loss in glide… but it comes at an energy cost. So my turn around point might be 5 or 7 miles in, not 8-10 miles. That can make a difference in how many hills are skied, turns are made, etc.
https://cache.tradeinn.com/images/pdf/m ... repair.pdf
This was for recreational waxing only. The pro manuals have a crazy amount of detail, temp/humidity graphs, etc.
It’s also the reason for a snow thermometer. Because it’s the snow temp that counts… air temp is for “civilians” only, because that’s what’s available to most people (and often the reference temp is recorded at airports… tens of miles away and often far from hills and tree lines). Again, recreational stuff like this…
The interesting thing is that Swix references all of its waxes to “shade” temperature. This will be different than snow temperature in the sun etc. But reference temperatures (like at airports and weather stations) are measured this way too. Not taking this into account isn’t a huge deal for glide wax… but it can massively affect grip wax performance.
Even still, my skis react differently if the chosen glide wax isn’t ideal. My speed, even in the backcountry, suffers. Not by a huge amount, as more effort can make up for a minor loss in glide… but it comes at an energy cost. So my turn around point might be 5 or 7 miles in, not 8-10 miles. That can make a difference in how many hills are skied, turns are made, etc.
Go Ski
Re: Skis without metal edges recomendations
I think I understand what asnes was trying to do--make a WL pattern that really doesn't drag, but they just went too far.mca80 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 23, 2023 7:44 pm
In any case, thanks @spopepro for clarifying re the asnes waxless. Was just trying to be fair while expressing the minimum of what I have seen here. Odd how a company can get such negative response while a competitor consistently gets praise, and not figure out how to emulate. Even weirder is that Neptune in USA is stocking more and more Asnes waxless models to the exlusion of waxable bases. Sounds like bad business to me, but what do I know.
As far as neptune--I only ski waxless... patterned or skins. I think it's almost a requirement if you're covering any distance in the mountains, and especially on the west coast. There isn't any tour I can ever remember where a single wax was in play the entire time, and with snow surface temps most often above freezing the wax that works isn't easy to work with. Add to that americans' resistance to learning the dark arts of waxing in general and I can understand why they sell a ton of the WL skis, even if they suck.