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Full camber vs rocker/camber
Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2023 11:02 pm
by Andinista
I’ve been testing different gear, slowly through the years because there’s no access to demo gear where i ski. I moved from softer bindings to AXLs and then to NTN. My skis for powder or softer snow are Voile V6, which i love for these conditions. Then i got a pair of Volk Kendo 88 for piste and could finally do strong and fast carving turns on the hard pack. I kind of accepted that the V6 and any other in that category just weren’t good enough for carving turns. But recently I got a pair of Coomba’s, the old ones, not the Coomback. Just couldn’t resist to buy them for almost nothing, without many expectations, maybe to be my rock skis or perhaps for occasional alpine skiing. I ended up installing a Rottefella Freeride second skis kit and tested them a few times recently. And I loved them. I can ski anyrhing, from hard pack to powder. Not as stong carvers as the Kendos but a lot better than the V6. And on powder they are great, feel strong and stable, i need to test them a bit more to tell if i like them better than the Voiles.
What’s the big diference? I think it’s the full camber, the are more stable, less playfull, which seems to better fit my style. Same with the Kendo’s, the have some early rise but not much.
Any one else prefers full camber?
Re: Full camber vs rocker/camber
Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2023 11:54 pm
by Stephen
I can’t speak with much gravitas, since I don’t have the years (decades) needed for that, but it seems like it really comes down to style, and demands of the snow and terrain.
I’m skiing Meidjo 3s, TX Pros, and a variety of skis:
Wayback 88
Enforcer 94
Ripstick 96
V6 BC
Blizzard R10
Ripstick 106
Armada 118
They’re all pretty different, but I wouldn’t say any of them are full camber.
But, the Enforcer 94 is probably closest to the Kendo (even though the Wayback is the same waist, at 88).
The Enforcers, to me, feel like a tank — on piste, they just feel so solid.
But, having the other, more powder friendly skis, I haven’t skied them in powder.
I did try the V6 BC on piste once and it wasn’t great (in fairness, I think it was my very first experience on my NTN setup, so take that with a huge grain of salt — they were frustratingly slow, thought).
For me, I think I like rocker.
Could be a lot of reasons, but partly I think I like that feel better, and also, I don’t think I’m normally developing the speed and force needed to make cambered skis work best.
But I do like camber on firm snow, for edging, speed and stability.
Voile did a nice comparison of their different ski profiles comparing these characteristics that might be interesting:
https://www.voile.com/blog/early-rise-c ... -shootout/
Re: Full camber vs rocker/camber
Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2023 8:10 am
by greatgt
Have both the old style and new rocker double camber 109's. Rocker fore and aft on the new ones and it has some problems you might want to consider. Down is good on both sets but the older model seems more substantial. Stronger, harder, can withstand brushing up against those things in the Forest. Rocker on the aft part of the newer 109's sometimes break away. In other words, the skis take a slide back and I know anybody who regularly breaks trail does not like the feeling. Don't much care one way or the other for rocker on the tips. Far as camber as I've said for decades, they are built in shock absorbers and going over things in the forest is a delight. Example soon will be hitting an inch of snow or some such idiotic thing that can't be explained and dewing a turn can't happen. But while on a branch while sliding that double Cambe can be used to slide around while on that big branch or small log. yeah. Got the fever for snow. Being as old as I am, it keeps me going. TM
Re: Full camber vs rocker/camber
Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2023 9:19 am
by Andinista
To be fair with the V6, without changing my conclusion, i was skiing with different boots and bindings. I was also testing a new (used) pair of TX-Pros, which were compressing the arch of my feet. The bellows are softer than my Crispi’s, and i couldn’t tighten the springs of the Meidjo’s by hand. (Will carry a multitool instead of a swiss army knife from now on..). On the other hand, when i switched skis i also replaced the boot liners with the Crispí’s, fixing the boot fit completely. The Freerides were also tighter than the Meidjos, so i was much closer to my sweet point in the second half of the day.
i was surprised how exhausting it was to be skidding the inside ski more often than not, compared to holding the edge more consistently.
Re: Full camber vs rocker/camber
Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2023 10:02 am
by Montana St Alum
People's skill sets, boot/binding combos and applications vary so much that I think about all you can really say is, "keep an open mind". My personal preference is rocker-camber-rocker, but I'm really only resort skiing now. The only design I haven't cared for is major rocker up front with none, or very little, on the back.
Re: Full camber vs rocker/camber
Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2023 10:37 am
by Andinista
Montana St Alum wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2023 10:02 am
People's skill sets, boot/binding combos and applications vary so much that I think about all you can really say is, "keep an open mind".
Agree. “Soft skills” too.. sometimes you are a stronger or weaker skier only in your mind, and gear may act more like placebo
Re: Full camber vs rocker/camber
Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2023 9:50 pm
by lilcliffy
Curious-
What do you mean by "full camber"-
I am very farmiliar with the profile of your V6-
do the Kendo and the Coomba have no/zero rocker- even in the shovel?
.......
As for your comments and question-
generally speaking I like a downhill ski with a highly effective edge→ requiring camber-
though I do like smeary rockered and tapered skis in certain conditions- especially when skiing trees.
Re: Full camber vs rocker/camber
Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:53 pm
by Andinista
lilcliffy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 9:50 pm
Curious-
What do you mean by "full camber"-
I am very farmiliar with the profile of your V6-
do the Kendo and the Coomba have no/zero rocker- even in the shovel?
.......
As for your comments and question-
generally speaking I like a downhill ski with a highly effective edge→ requiring camber-
though I do like smeary rockered and tapered skis in certain conditions- especially when skiing trees.
My Coombas are these:
https://www.evo.com/outlet/skis/k2-apache-coomba
Full camber means no tip or tail rocker at all, just camber on the whole lengh of the ski:
Both the Kendo and the V6 have tip and tail rocker, but on the Kendo it's visibly less pronounced, and I think also shorter (so the camber part is longer)
Of course it involves the rest of the features of the ski too, and the kendo is clearly a better carver not just because of the rocker characteristics. But focusing only on that, it's clear how a longer effective edge provides stability and edge control on the groomers at speed. Also a less pronounced rocker will help because you start using that part of the edges before, or with less angulation. Here is an interesting point, because I also found out that with the V6 I was more prone to skidding on the flatter slopes. I had less troubles on steeper areas, where more angulation is naturally applied, probably getting the full edge to contact the snow before the camber part starts skidding.
Skidding may be produced because you apply too little or too much pressure on the edges. With shorter length of the effective edge, the weight is distributed on a shorter length, which means more pressure on the edges, so they may start skidding before expected because of too much pressure applied. As I write, I realize that this was probably the problem but I was trying to correct it with more angulation and getting lower. I should probably have tried a taller but solid stance, without as much angulation. Hard to tell without testing both things, but I have something to test next time
Re: Full camber vs rocker/camber
Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2023 1:44 pm
by Stephen
https://www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic. ... out#p50119
Stephen wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:40 pm
I'm trying to make the jump from NNN BC / Leathers to NTN and TX Pros.
The learning curve is steeper than anticipated!
Took two days to figure out how to not spin out backwards on every turn.
Still revert to Alpine technique when I get ahead of my ability.
Seems like learning Telemark is more challenging than Alpine style.
When the Telemark works, it's pretty cool!
That was on the V6 BC.
Re: Full camber vs rocker/camber
Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2023 10:12 am
by MonomarkMark
Andinista wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 12:53 pm
lilcliffy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 9:50 pm
Curious-
What do you mean by "full camber"-
I am very farmiliar with the profile of your V6-
do the Kendo and the Coomba have no/zero rocker- even in the shovel?
.......
As for your comments and question-
generally speaking I like a downhill ski with a highly effective edge→ requiring camber-
though I do like smeary rockered and tapered skis in certain conditions- especially when skiing trees.
My Coombas are these:
https://www.evo.com/outlet/skis/k2-apache-coomba
Full camber means no tip or tail rocker at all, just camber on the whole lengh of the ski:
Both the Kendo and the V6 have tip and tail rocker, but on the Kendo it's visibly less pronounced, and I think also shorter (so the camber part is longer)
Of course it involves the rest of the features of the ski too, and the kendo is clearly a better carver not just because of the rocker characteristics. But focusing only on that, it's clear how a longer effective edge provides stability and edge control on the groomers at speed. Also a less pronounced rocker will help because you start using that part of the edges before, or with less angulation. Here is an interesting point, because I also found out that with the V6 I was more prone to skidding on the flatter slopes. I had less troubles on steeper areas, where more angulation is naturally applied, probably getting the full edge to contact the snow before the camber part starts skidding.
Skidding may be produced because you apply too little or too much pressure on the edges. With shorter length of the effective edge, the weight is distributed on a shorter length, which means more pressure on the edges, so they may start skidding before expected because of too much pressure applied. As I write, I realize that this was probably the problem but I was trying to correct it with more angulation and getting lower. I should probably have tried a taller but solid stance, without as much angulation. Hard to tell without testing both things, but I have something to test next time
There's no such thing as "full camber" i.e. camber on the "whole length" of a cambered ski. Camber ceases where the tips and tails start turning up however little they may ultimately turn. Bending the ski tips and tails upwards is the opposite of camber. A rocker-camber-rocker ski has camber over the RUNNING LENGTH of the ski. And technically, unless the tail is actually flat, every cambered ski has some rocker‐camber-rocker form.