Telemark Talk / Telemark Tips Forum

Hi all,

I have been reading a whole bunch of ski (and binding) reviews and discussions here, but between this and the manufacturer info I am still unsure what to buy - I would be happy about some advice.

I will need BC skis for a two-week easter trip to the Hardangervidda (with backpack, probably mostly on existing tracks), and would like to also use the equipment here in Switzerland. I have many years of XC experience, skating and classic, and when I was in Trondheim for an exchange semester we did many backcountry tours with basic cross country skis. Now I want to get "real" fjellskis, some kind of allrounder suitable for long distances (Hardangervidda) and ok on steeper hills (Switzerland, probably Jura). It would be nice if it fit into groomed tracks when they are there, but it should do ok without tracks.

Currently, I am leaning towards a Fischer Transnordic 66 (scales + short skin) because it seems like it's a solid ski, it's easy to get and I would slightly prefer waxless. The Asnes Gamme 54 (wax + short skin) sounds really good, but it's hard to get and more expensive. Lastly I found good offers for Asnes Otto Sverdrup (wax + short skin), which is a little wider than the other two, but maybe not ideal for long distances.

I was also thinking about trying the Xplore system to give me better downhill control with the major downside being primarily a bit more cost - but I am unsure if this makes sense on relatively narrow skis that should fit into tracks.

Off course any ski is going to be a compromise, but maybe someone can tell me if my plans make sense, or not

Best,
Thomas

Hi,
On Hardangervidda you would probably (depending on recent snowfall) be following tracks made by previous skiiers, whereas in the Jura probably partly groomed tracks?
I'd say for Hardangervidda a ski like the Gamme / TN66 / Ousland / Amundsen is ideal.
In groomed tracks any steel edged skis will catch somewhat, and a ski like the Mountain Race 48 will be a bit better (due to the absence of steel edges at the tip).
The Otto Sverdrup is a very good ski for use on tours where maneuverability is important. You will sacrifice some efficiency on flats for much better turnability. And it will absolutely NOT fit in groomed XC tracks, but you should be able to follow other peoples' tracks on Hardangervidda.

Whether you are best served by the Sverdrup or one of the models with less sidecut in the Jura, depends on the typical tour profile.

Since you know the topography of central Norway, I live in Bymarka and would be happy with the Sverdrup as a one ski quiver. I have used Sverdrup many times to ski up and down Gråkallen from Kobberdammen (following Nordrenna) and around the Herbernheia area. As you know this is steep enough in places to appeal to AT enthusiasts, but I found the Sverdrup very capable (although of course nowhere near AT ski DH capabilities). I also used the Sverdrup for lift days at Vassfjellet, on all the slopes.
Unfortunately my Sverdrups broke this spring. As I also have a Falketind Xplore for steep tours I got a pair of Ousland to replace the Sverdrup for distance touring purposes. I have not yet the Ousland yet but I will as soon as I have the opportunity.

If I would have to have only one pair of fjellskis I would most probably chose the Sverdrups.
Re-Xplore - I am impressed with the binding paired with my Alfa Free boots, the sole is torsionally rigid also for a heavy skier like myself. This helps with edgeing. BC boots can be quite noodly but it depends also on the model. The benefits of Xplore are most obvious with a bit wider skis like the Sverdrup but there is no downside in using them on narrower skis except for the price.

Hello and welcome Thomas!

(Assuming that the Transnordic 66 is very similar/identical to the E99 Xtralite)-

The Transnordic 66 and the Sverdrup ski are VERY similar in profile/camber/flex-

they both have a flexible- significantly-rockered shovel- making turn initiation effortless (this also makes them unstable in deep snow.)

the Sverdrup has a more flexible and tapered tail than the TN66/E99- facilitating shorter-raduis turns.

they both have significant camber and resistance underfoot for classic XC skiing technique.

the TN66 is just narrow enough to work in a groomed track (as Roelant pointed out- the Sverdrup is not).

the TN66 has Fischer excellent Off-Track Crown scale insert.

the Sverdrup has a kicker skin insert (WHY does the TN66 Crown not have a kicker skin insert?!?)

Do you need/want this ski to fit into a groomed track?

Gareth

Hi Thomas,

You’re not the only Norway-fan here in CH! I have toured extensively in the Hardangervidda on ski and have used different skis for the tours. In 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2019 I used an older waxless version of the Fischer E99 without tip rocker (the current Transnordic 66 has similar dimensions, but comes with tip rocker). In 2018 I took the slightly wider Fischer E109 (waxable) – again, the older version with no rocker, the current version (Transnordic 82) has rocker. This year, in March, I took the narrower version of the E99, namely the E89, with a waxless base. The E99 and E89 were used with the NNN BC boot/binding system and the E109 with 75mm 3-pin mounted on a 10mm riser. I was pleased with all three sets, but the narrow E89 was stiffer and faster and allowed me to “leap-frog” two of the cabins (i.e. four stages in two days: Finse > Krækkja > Stigstuv, then Stigstuv > Sandhaug > Litlos on the next day). Had it not been for a deterioration in the weather, I would also have managed Litlos > Hellevassbu > Haukeliseter in one day (42km) with that set.

Your choice of Fischer Transnordic 66 waxless as an allrounder is a good one. As far as I’m aware, the TN 66 with short skins was available only in waxable, and the waxless/short skins version has only just been introduced this season. You won’t need full-length skins on the Hardangervidda, assuming that you’re following the marked ski-routes, but the short skins would be very useful when you get close to Haukeliseter.

You (very sensibly) stated that you would like to use the equipment here in Switzerland beforehand. However, you might also like to consider that if you purchase in Norway, you get the VAT (25%) refunded when you take the skis back to CH. If the total value is less than CHF 300 (after deduction of Norwegian VAT), you don’t pay the 7.7% MwSt. (or 8.1% after 01.01.2024) on arrival back here.

As you might deduce from my forum name, I am also very familiar with the Jura, having toured extensively between Balsthal and Bellegarde over the last 30+ years. Due to the nature of the rock (limestone) the slopes are steeper than in the Hardangervidda and the descents are more challenging as they often involve narrow farm-access roads through the forest, (there are no trees on the Hardangervidda). If your priority in CH-Jura would be the long machine-prepared trails, such as the Vallée des Ponts et de La Sagne, the parallel Vallée de La Brévine, or the long traverse of Mont Tendre from Mollendruz to Marchairuz and onwards to La Givrine, you would be best served by the E89 (now Transnordic 59, but waxable only and with short skins). This ski has full-length steel edges, but it fits well in the tracks. It cannot be recommended as an allround fjellski. The wider E99/Transnordic 66 also fits in the tracks but creates considerable drag. Anything wider will have you stepping out of the loipe and using the skaters’ carpet. For general touring in the High Jura (Haute Chaîne du Jura) from La Dôle via Col de la Faucille, Col de Crozet, Crêt de la Neige, Chalet du Sac and onwards to Bellegarde, the E99/Transnordic 66 would be a better choice, or even something a little bit wider. For the Jura there is no need to use wide hybrid skis, such as the Fischer S-Bound 98. Such skis will give a more secure feeling on the descent, but will be real boat-anchors on the long loipe sections mentioned above.

My advice would be to sort out your boots first, regardless of the boot/binding norm, as well-fitting boots are far more important on long tours than the planks on your feet. You’ll find the widest choice in NNN BC (for example Alpina tend to be narrow, whereas Alfa are generally broader). If you can’t find a suitable boot in that norm, then try the 75mm norm, although your choices there will be much more limited. I can’t make an informed comment on the Xplore system, as I have had no experience of it. Likewise, I have never used Åsnes skis, although I brought a brand new pair of Nansen back from Norway in April. They will be coming to Norway with me next spring, but I won’t be using them on the Hardangervidda – for the vidda I’ll take Madshus Glittertind, which have similar geometry to the E99 and are stiffer than the soft-cambered Nansen. I would also mention that if you favour waxless skis, the Fischer fishscale pattern is generally agreed to grip better than the Åsnes offerings. Whichever skis you choose, I would DEFINITELY recommend steel edges for the Hardangervidda. In optimal snow conditions, you might get away with edgeless (I’ve seen a few people with them on the vidda), but on ice or very hard wind-compacted snow you’re pretty much buggered – you’ll want to take them off and walk. I would also recommend doing the paper test when you try your skis. You’ll need someone to help you do this. Put on your normal ski-touring clothing and your fully-loaded rucksack before stepping on the skis to make sure the skis don’t flatten out. If they do, then you might need a longer ski.

Unfortunately in this country, where everybody and his dog skis, Nordic touring is virtually unheard of, so you’ll have difficulty finding a shop where you can just walk in and try on stuff. You could try calling Scandinavian Outdoor Shop in Bachenbülach to see what they have available to try on: https://www.outdoorfeeling.com/. Note that the stupidly low prices they show on boots apply to stupidly small foot-sizes.

Back to Norway, and if you get bitten by the Nordic-touring bug during your trip in the Hardangervidda you might later think of the more challenging mountain ranges just to the north of it, namely Skarvheimen, Jotunheimen and Breheimen. For that type of terrain I definitely prefer a slightly wider ski (E109-type) and 75mm norm. I was also pleasantly surprised this past April when I took the Fischer S-Bound 98/75mm Cable across Skarvheimen from Finse to Tyin (124km). Having said that, most Norwegians ski that terrain quite happily with classic fjellski and NNN BC boot/bindings. The best-known classics are E99/Transnordic 66, Madshus Glittertind (now Panorama T55, but with short skins instead of the previous fishscales). The Åsnes classic is the Rago (now Amundsen). The Gamme 54 hasn’t been around for as long, but appears to be designed for similar usage. With Amundsen you have a choice of waxable or waxless, whereas the Gamme 54 comes as waxable only. You would not be badly advised to take any of those four models, with the Fischer being the best choice if you strongly prefer fishscales. Also, if you chose NNN BC, I would recommend that you take the manual version of the binding (either standard width or “Magnum”) and not the automatic one.

By the way, I’ll also be in the Hardangervidda again next Easter. I’ll look out for a guy with a cowbell around his neck who sneaks out of the cabin for a yodel after dinner.

Jurassien

Awesome read. A wealth of local knowledge and a broad approach to skiing. Impressive and enjoyable. Thanks for posting.

Thank you all for your very interesting and useful replies

It seems the consensus is that my three candidates would work, thats good to hear. Basically, I have to make the choice between wax and scale, as well as better downhill versus fitting into tracks.

@CwmRaider Nice to hear from someone living in Bymarka, ski tracks on your doorstep Our tours to the various NTNUI cabins all around Trondheim are some of my favourite memories and I have never been able to find something quite like it here in Switzerland. I would not have expected the Sverdrup doing ok on groomed slopes, but it sounds promising. Would definitely make it easier to find places to use them here. But, as Jurassien also pointed out, I would probably encounter groomed tracks regularly, and it would be nice to fit in those. I might get the Xplore in any case, more control over the ski should help on downhills (if the ski itself does not turn easily I can still force it), and maybe I will get a second pair of skis at some point

@lilcliffy From your description, the TN66 and the Sverdrup are not so far apart, except for the tail and turn radius. I think I am (still) leaning toward the narrower TN66, as I am also leaning toward waxless, and the Fischer scales generally seem to be regarded as the better ones - if I would pick Åsnes, I would go with wax.
As for the crown/skin story, Fischer seems to throw the dice whether to put kicker skin capability on their various waxless skis. This year the they changed the TN66 to have crown and skin, sounds like a good idea to me.

@Jurassien Wow, that is half a book I loved the weekend trips around Trondheim, and I am now slowly realizing that I have to go back to Norway to find something like that. Except now it will be a multi-day tour. So, for the Vidda, narrow seems to be the way to go, but at this point I will definitely trade speed for all-round-capability. We will probably start from Haukeliseter and head north, mostly on the marked trails. Maybe we will have enough time to do a day or two in Hallingskarvet, that direction looks more interesting on the map
Thank you for the note about buying skis in Norway, but I really want to try them before and don't really fancy having to get them immediately before the trip. Although availability would certainly be infinitely better, I had already found and outdoorfeeling as the only possible place, but with a very limited selection.
Now for all that great info on the Jura: I often thought about it, but so far have never gone there for skiing (either no show anywhere except the high valleys, or good snow and then I stay here on Bachtel or in Einsiedeln), so your info is appreciated. I will have to take my new skis there in any case, still the most suitable terrain for BC skiing, provided the winter is ok. Although you make an interesting point, it sounds like you kinda have to decide to mostly stick to the long groomed tracks or to go away from them and navigate steep, narrow decents.
Maybe I have to get two pairs of skis at some point, touring the mountains north of the Vidda sounds tempting.
If you look out for a yodling guy with a cowbell, I will look for someone smelling of cheese and absinth, we are sure to find each other

veloyage wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 04, 2023 6:09 pm

Our tours to the various NTNUI cabins all around Trondheim are some of my favourite memories and I have never been able to find something quite like it here in Switzerland.

Ahh!.......You’d be surprised!

veloyage wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 04, 2023 6:09 pm

Although you make an interesting point, it sounds like you kinda have to decide to mostly stick to the long groomed tracks or to go away from them and navigate steep, narrow decents.

You can have it both ways. I spent a lot of time researching a long-distance route from Balsthal to Bellegarde (270km in 10 days). If you do the whole route, the long loipe sections mentioned in my previous post are almost unavoidable, which is why you need a ski which will at least fit in the loipe, even if it is broader than a loipe ski and causes some drag. A ski with E99-type dimensions is ideal for the tour as a whole, as outside of the tracks you will have a genuine allround fjellski. An E89-type is too narrow to be an allrounder and an E109-type is a good allrounder, but too broad for the loipe.

veloyage wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 04, 2023 6:09 pm

We will probably start from Haukeliseter and head north, mostly on the marked trails.

Haukeliseter is easy to get to with the Haukeliekspressen Bus Nr. NW180, but book the tickets on the NOR-WAY Bus Express website https://www.nor-way.no/ and not through VY, which is better for the trains https://www.vy.no/. From Haukeliseter (985m) you’ll have the steepest part of the entire traverse right in front of your nose, namely the slope right on the other side of the road from the hut (Haukeliseter is more like a motel than a mountain hut). Thankfully, it’s not a long ascent at just 155m (goes up initially to 1140m, then later, less steeply, to 1350m), and although full-length skins would be handy here, it’s certainly not worth taking them just for this short ascent. You should be able to manage OK with short skins and zig-zags. If you have wax-only skis (no short skins), then grip-wax the entire length of the ski and leave it rough (don’t cork it in). You’re looking for traction here, not kick and glide. You can scrape the tips and tails and cork the grip zone later when that becomes necessary.

By starting at Finse, you won’t have to overcome this initial hurdle on your first touring day with a heavy touring rucksack, as the train gives you a “leg-up” to 1200m (1222m, to be exact). When you step out of the carriage, you’re already IN the vidda, rather than having to climb up into it. If you haven’t done much of this kind of thing before, I would recommend the Finse start and going north > south. That way you’ll have a much easier first day – in fact an easier first three days all the way to Sandhaug, as you’ll be in the easier, flatter part of the vidda.

veloyage wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 04, 2023 6:09 pm

If you look out for a yodling guy with a cowbell, I will look for someone smelling of cheese and absinth, we are sure to find each other

I try my best to ski in a straight line – so no Absinthe or anything remotely similar on my tours. I’ll gladly take the cheese though – make mine a Hölengereifter Gruyère please!

Jurassien

veloyage wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 04, 2023 6:09 pm

This year the they changed the TN66 to have crown and skin, sounds like a good idea to me.

FINALLY! This is great news!

lilcliffy wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 05, 2023 11:17 am

veloyage wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 04, 2023 6:09 pm

This year the they changed the TN66 to have crown and skin, sounds like a good idea to me.

FINALLY! This is great news!

I just checked the Fischer site and there doesn't appear to be a skin attachment on the TN66 Crown. Where have you seen this?

Ok upon further research it does appear that the skin is back for '24. Fischer might want to update their site, lol.

The dilemma; drop $360 plus shipping at Telemark Pyrenees for the new crown/skin or grab last year's crown only for $199 with free shipping.....

@Jurassien Ok, so TN66 seems a good choice. I know the largest climb is at Haukeli, but it's only the largest because the route is so flat. The altitude profile looks a bit boring to me actually, but I am sure it will be ok. We did way more up and down around Trondheim, and sometimes steep too, with wax only (and no steel edges). The terrain being easier in the north is good to know, I will keep it in mind. We have not decided on the route yet. At least that's a reason to take the short skin

Ahh!.......You’d be surprised!

Well, I might be. But I don't think there is a replacement for the wide landscapes, remote-ish huts, going from the treeline (at 600 m) to rocky, icy mountaintops (at 900m) in an afternoon on CC skis, without meeting anyone else. And the NTNUI cabis were generally really cute too. I will keep my good memories, but try to make new ones anyway.

@wabene Yeah, the Fischer website is confusing and not very informative. The pictures show the new ski without the skin lock, but the dealer pictures (e.g. https://www.sport-conrad.com/produkte/f ... alite.html) clearly show the new model with skin locks. I had also seen another model where they did the same, website picture was a photoshop job of a ski model that did not exist, even showing the buttom of the ski with scales and no skin lock, while the description says and the dealer pictures show it has skin locks.
Yeah, the old ones can be had quite cheap, but I think I will order the new one at 300€.