Telemark Talk / Telemark Tips Forum

Ive always ski'd with my dog Gale. I always used Åsnes Breidablikk, 180 waxless (nnnbc). I haul a pulk on rods with her pulling me (she doesn't have enough umpf to get the pulk uphills alone). The sled is about 50lbs of cold weather gear, plus food and fuel. So let's say the sled is 75 lbs (34kg) for 5 days out.

Asnes carries a whole lineup of metal edge pulk pulling long distance traversing skis: Ingstad , Nansen, Liv, Line, Amundson, Ousland. Polar explorers and mountain travelers seem to all use metal edge skis. I've always used non-metal edge skis. What am I giving up? Besides no metal edge danger for my dog, is there any advantage to no metal?
Durability has not been a factor for my Breidablikks, I've ridden them hard and long, they got so many rock, branch, and stump shots they should be replaced, but I keep eeking out miles.

A)EDGES: Im wondering what I lose without having metal edges?

B) WIDTH: Could skinnier skis be better suited for long distances? I've always liked the "all purpose" of my breidablikk ( 86-62-74). While there ARE hills, and occasional steep sections, there are also often flats. Steep hills and hills in general will be on narrow (snowmachine or dogsled) width trail, not open plateaus. My main goal is not to break me or my dog, while managing the pulk downhill.

Recently I did two training trips that I struggled with the skis.
1) a 30 mile day on hardpack windblown uneven "trail" , 0f
2) a 30 mile day on snow that fell at -18c/0f, still soft trail, it had been freshly"packed" but it was 12+" fresh, and still 2-3" packed, temperatures were -30f low to -10f highs during my ski.

Each day the ski feels dead. We go about 3mph slogging along on FLAT portions.

Would a metal edge help the incessant bouncing of the ski? ? (Yes, I did fall flat on my face when I put the ski pole down in-between my skis)
Would a different type of ski help improve my kick and glide in these conditions?

Of course, I never know the type of conditions, especially these days. The trip I'm training for is 90+ river miles, 90 mile forest portage, some (100?ish miles) sea-ice travel,.open tundra coastal travel (possible windblown and drifted snow), one larger mountain climb/descent, and low angle ascent, steep angle decent, which will be on narrow trail.

Tell me what you guys think! Am I giving myself undue suffering with the Breidablikks?

Grace and Gale-dog

Edit: I also wanted to explore the topic of length of skis when hauling a heavy pulk, more than "use a longer ski." But per how much weight in the pulk should I add length to my "recommended" length (which is 180) as I'm 59 kg/130lbs and 5'6/168

I don't have too much advice, that could be taken as "reliable", because -30f to -10f is no joke!
I'm typically skiing at above 0f temps, and more often than not, in the +20f range (plus or minus 10f)

Skijourning has always interested me.
I've never taken the plunge, mostly because although my two rough collies are excellent hiking and ski companions, I dont think they are quite well-trained enough to trust a tether. lol

But based upon your descriptions, I would guess some more seasoned Members here would steer you toward the Asnes Admudsen? Seems like it's a no frills, reliable and stable ski that can really lay down the miles (or kilometers) over rolling terrain. Probably a bit less "turny" than what you are skiing now, though.

I'll chime in with what little I know. For an edgeless backcountry ski your options are the 3 Asnes models. I am not positive but fairly sure no one else makes such a ski these days. Asnes used to have other edgeless models if you go back 2 decades.

If hitting your dog with a ski in the backcountry is at all a possibility, I would do whatever I could to ensure such an incident does not cause injury. Maybe detuning edges is enough, I do not know. Depends on your dog and terrain and control. My guess is you won't be going fast enough most, but not all, of the time to do any damage.

Lack of edges may make the ski less stiff. On the other hand Asnes has stated that the edgeless models were designed to be stiffer to account for lack of edge. I have the Finnmark and Kongsvold and both are fairly stiff under foot. The latter is not a ski I would want to use for any distance, I use it when going up and down and up and down short hills in the Superior plateau looking for birds when there is at least some new snow of decent depth. The former is very similar to if not the same (but without edge) as the remodelled Gamme. It's a good xc ski unless the snow is very deep and will perform better as a straight up xc ski than Breidablik in most situations--except deep snow or steep sections. A lack of metal edges may also affect grip and tracking in ice and hardpack and rough snowmobile trails.

Regarding length, depends on your weight. Asnes recommends longer if carrying weight, either pack or sled, and a longer ski is simply more stable. Instability, and a ski that doesnt track straight, will lead to fatigue.

If I wasn't all worried about the dog and depending on just how much hill you have and your experience, I would think Amundsen would be the most efficient ski, or maybe Combat NATO, which shares DNA with your Breidablik, if you have more sections of deeper and steeper. If you are concerned with edges then Bredablik or Finnmark are the only real options and I think I would choose the latter unless you expected deep loose snow and/or prolonged steeps.

To put it more simply, your Breidablik is a very good choice but as with anything there are compromises to be made and no one ski excels in every single aspect, but only in some at the expense of others.

Metal edges have so many advantages such as control and durability which is so important for a backcountry ski. I've always skied with my dogs and never had heard that metal edges could harm them. Because of this I have many miles with them while on metal edged skis. My oldest dog likes to run right on the back of my skis to the point I can see her snout when I look down, lol. My other dog keeps a good distance. I have struggled to keep the older dog at distance with mixed results. I do worry that I will hurt her and when I'm on edgeless skis I aggressively try to train her to keep distance. It is definitely something that should be considered. I'm not sure it's a hard fast rule that you can't mix metal edged skis and dogs, but you need to weigh the risks yourself. You can watch YouTube videos of people skiing on metal edged skis with their dogs. It happens.

Madshus now has a fishscaled edgeless backcountry ski, the Madshus Panorama SF 62 2024

Neat, though that ski is probably not much if any improvement over the Breidablik.

College friend of mine in western MT says he would see about one dog per year carried out of the backcountry with bandages on its legs. Not sure if it was hyperbole or not, but I wouldn't want to run into my friend at 20-30mph with a sharp metal edge. But I studied Nassim Taleb and saw him wearing 3 masks and faceshield during covid out of his "precautionary principle" so now I am confused re safety. One can certainly err in the wrong direction, causing more harm than if one ignored shit entirely and just acted stupidly.

I suppose my main struggle is the speed. Typically I can maintain 4-5 mph on the flats, 2.5 to 3 mph is horrendously slow.

Friction makers: weight and surface area
The Ski and Human
The Pulk Sled

I just went out today for a shorter cold weather ski. Woke up to -40f, but waited to -30f to venture out. Trails are slightly firmer than yesterday, but still slow.

I said this pulk hauling thing ain't fun, so I removed the pulk from myself entirely and put it on my dog Gale with rope. I have had major issues with the pulk slamming into either her or mine heels, but with these high friction conditions that's not a worry. And we were on flattish trails anyways.

Anyways, I was skiing without a pulk since Gale had me covered, and I still had practically no glide. It's the snow. It's this goddamn no moisture snow. Im skiing on sandpaper. Is this how the snow is on Arctic and Antarctic tours? How do they do it. There is no glide. Why then ski? Skiiiiii crisis.

And PS I have the Åsnes Kongsveld, yeah, no. Those are heavy slow things. Not for distance, unless completely off trail. I also recently acquired the Finnmark with Xplore bindings, but my new boots give me bad blisters so I haven't been able to go many miles on them unfortunately. And the 2nd pair of new boots give me less bad blisters, but still blisters. So those poor skis don't get the attention I want to give them, I'm going broke. Help.

mca80 wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 01, 2024 8:12 pm

Neat, though that ski is probably not much if any improvement over the Breidablik.

College friend of mine in western MT says he would see about one dog per year carried out of the backcountry with bandages on its legs. Not sure if it was hyperbole or not, but I wouldn't want to run into my friend at 20-30mph with a sharp metal edge. But I studied Nassim Taleb and saw him wearing 3 masks and faceshield during covid out of his "precautionary principle" so now I am confused re safety. One can certainly err in the wrong direction, causing more harm than if one ignored shit entirely and just acted stupidly.

I could see the occasional injury for sure. In Alberta pretty much any areas where there's enough snowpack for skitouring just also happens to be in a national or provincial park, thus requiring dogs to be onleash. Most just disobey the leash law when descending, but some people ski downhill with their dogs on leash. Which is completely dangerous nonsense. A big reason I started skiing weird foothills shit with no leash laws

Lhartley wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 02, 2024 12:25 am

Most just disobey the leash law when descending, but some people ski downhill with their dogs on leash.

As a working husky, she is always on leash. I don't haul her meat and food 300 miles just for her company.

I've posted this non-metal edge topic to learn what I'm missing out using metalless edges.

I can tell you guys that skiing with metal edges with a dog is very dangerous, if a dog, leashed or unleashed, happens be in front of a metal edge, and if the angle is right, the edge will cut through the Achilles tendon of a dog (just like a human, the thin tendon at the rear of your foot) like a knife to warm butter. The damage is irreparable. It's no joke, and it only takes one mishap. I'd like to discuss metal edge skis vs non-metal edge pulk hauling distance skis, not dog safety.

I should clarify, i was talking about touring for turns, not distance touring. And only responding to someone saying injuries were regular

Skijoring Grace Gale wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 01, 2024 3:31 pm

Ive always ski'd with my dog Gale. I always used Åsnes Breidablikk, 180 waxless (nnnbc). I haul a pulk on rods with her pulling me (she doesn't have enough umpf to get the pulk uphills alone). The sled is about 50lbs of cold weather gear, plus food and fuel. So let's say the sled is 75 lbs (34kg) for 5 days out.

Asnes carries a whole lineup of metal edge pulk pulling long distance traversing skis: Ingstad , Nansen, Liv, Line, Amundson, Ousland. Polar explorers and mountain travelers seem to all use metal edge skis. I've always used non-metal edge skis. What am I giving up? Besides no metal edge danger for my dog, is there any advantage to no metal?
Durability has not been a factor for my Breidablikks, I've ridden them hard and long, they got so many rock, branch, and stump shots they should be replaced, but I keep eeking out miles.

A)EDGES: Im wondering what I lose without having metal edges?

B) WIDTH: Could skinnier skis be better suited for long distances? I've always liked the "all purpose" of my breidablikk ( 86-62-74). While there ARE hills, and occasional steep sections, there are also often flats. Steep hills and hills in general will be on narrow (snowmachine or dogsled) width trail, not open plateaus. My main goal is not to break me or my dog, while managing the pulk downhill.

Recently I did two training trips that I struggled with the skis.
1) a 30 mile day on hardpack windblown uneven "trail" , 0f
2) a 30 mile day on snow that fell at -18c/0f, still soft trail, it had been freshly"packed" but it was 12+" fresh, and still 2-3" packed, temperatures were -30f low to -10f highs during my ski.

Each day the ski feels dead. We go about 3mph slogging along on FLAT portions.

Would a metal edge help the incessant bouncing of the ski? ? (Yes, I did fall flat on my face when I put the ski pole down in-between my skis)
Would a different type of ski help improve my kick and glide in these conditions?

Of course, I never know the type of conditions, especially these days. The trip I'm training for is 90+ river miles, 90 mile forest portage, some (100?ish miles) sea-ice travel,.open tundra coastal travel (possible windblown and drifted snow), one larger mountain climb/descent, and low angle ascent, steep angle decent, which will be on narrow trail.

Tell me what you guys think! Am I giving myself undue suffering with the Breidablikks?

Grace and Gale-dog

Edit: I also wanted to explore the topic of length of skis when hauling a heavy pulk, more than "use a longer ski." But per how much weight in the pulk should I add length to my "recommended" length (which is 180) as I'm 59 kg/130lbs and 5'6/168

Hi Grace,

The length of your skis while pulling a pulk is irrelevant as long as they do not touch your pulk while striding (which they should not if you have the right traces. My wife is the exact same size as you and pulls a pulk with 169cm Fischer Excursions in mountainous terrain and on flats. It sounds like you are dragging your pulk with a rope sometimes (?). Get fiberglass traces and they will not come anywhere near you or your dog while your are pulling or descending. If it will be mostly your dog pulling invest in the purpose-built dog-traces like those from Fjellpulken in Norway- they are da bomb (though I detest their traces for humans- too much slack in belt attachment and parts of their traces fold and bend in falls- but this would not matter in a flatter trip such as this one).

On the question of edges and dogs- think about how you would feel if Gale got a nasty bleeding gash or a digit lopped off while you are a hundred miles from a vet and you can decide from there. This is more likely on a long trip such as your are attempting simply because there are more opportunities for it to occur. I would not look to polar explorers for pet-care advice- they often ate their dogs (or horses) by plan to lighten both their food-supply requirement and the chore of carrying dog food.

Something you might want to consider is inflatable snowshoes- there is a company in Bulgaria called Small Foot that makes an excellent product (they sold a shitload of them to the UK Royal Marines for Arctic exercises) they have a front and rear metal crampon. They would make quick work of your one ascent on your largely flat route, and also provide back-up in case you broke a ski or binding along the way and had to walk out. They come with a lightweight pump. They are ultra-light (< 3lbs.), easily packable (size of your 1L water bottle), and tough as nails. proof here-

ABS (the avalanche airbag people) also rebrand and sell this same snowshoe for an interesting price, they are much better quality than the Yukon Charlie made-in-china version that was recently discontinued. You can bring extra bladders if you are a worry-wart or just a 2 oz. TPU patch-kit, which you will not need unless you have bad luck. Small Foot stocks spare bladders, valves, etc.

Your pulk sounds quite heavy for five days out. If you are resupplying every five days you don't really need a pulk, an 80l pack would work better. In March my wife and I are doing a 16 day ski-tour in the Narvik mountains, I will have most of our collective gear including the 4-season Tiros tent, ground-sheet, stakes, stove, pot (not the smokable kind mind you), maps, nav system, repair kit, and 3/4 of the fuel. My wife will have the wind-shelter (Bothy-bag) and 1/4 of the fuel plus the first aid kit as she is an RN. We will each have a shovel and a rope. We have clothes for down to -40 degrees and sleeping bags rated at -30, our two sleeping pads each- give us a 6.8 R-value . We each have food for 16 days plus one extra day in reserve. My pulk should be lighter than yours and we are autonomous for 17 days and eating quite well. We also have three days built into the ski schedule for extreme weather, side trips, or general laziness (oft called "rest days").

What kind of pulk are you using? Where are you going? Canada?

Sounds like good fun!