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The boots I just ordered (Lundhags Guide) have nubuck uppers, for the life of me I can not understand why anybody uses this leather over full-grain smooth leather for a ski boot. I had it on my Alaskas too, but was not an issue as they were always enclosed in an over-boot gaiter.

How are people waterproofing this type of boot? I could care leas about maintaining the nap or appearance.

My initial thought is just to slather it in Lundhags boot wax and make it smooth.

Any ideas?

randoskier wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 26, 2024 3:13 pm

My initial thought is just to slather it in Lundhags boot wax and make it smooth.

Any ideas?

I guess this answered my own question- https://lundhags.com/eu/guide/boot-guid ... and-repair

I think that something is getting lost in translation-

in my knowledge/experience- the "rough-out" treated leather (Italian Perwanger leather) used in Lundhags ski touring boots is neither cheap split suede- nor is it heavy processed, treated "Nubuck".
(For comparison- the Lundhags Juare and the Scarpa Kinesis use heavily treated "Nubuck")

Regardless- I too do not understand the reasoning for using rough-out treated leather in ski touring boots and modern mountaineering boots-

I have asked both Lundhags and Scarpa for the practical reasoning for this- a number of times- I have never recieved a clear answer.

"Perwanger" treated rough-out leather is second-to-none in its quality and out-of the-box is durable, supportive, and hydro-phobic-
BUT- the treatment does wear down and the leather begins to dry out and crack without nourishment...

Personally I treat all my boots with a water-based cream- I want to nourish and maintain the leather and extend its life to the maximum.

Silicone-based sprays used to water-proof rough-out leathers and nubuck do not nourish leather- it will dry out and crack. They are recommended because they do not alter the aesthetic of rough-out leather and nubuck- but they do nothing to maintain leather.

I really don't care about maintaining pretty-looking fluffy leather-
I care about long-term maintenance.
This is what I want all of my leather boots to look like before intensive use:

HI Cliff, I agree- it is much easier to waterproof full grain leather with a smooth surface. I wonder if it is a breathability issue? But I would think that if the boot is completely coated in wax (as Lundhags suggests doing) that would be a moot point.

Scarpa says the Guide BC is made of- "Perwanger split skin leather". To me that is Nubuck.

I should drive over and ask Perwanger- their tannery is 23 minutes from here, according to Google maps. Scarpa is an hour the other direction. Lundhags calls it Nubuck, here are their leathers in their own words-

'Nubuck Leather
Characteristics: Velvety finish, durable but needs special care.
Cleaning: Remove dirt with a soft brush.
Protection: Use a Nubuck-specific impregnation spray.
Maintenance: Avoid regular waxes or oils. After treatment, use a special brush to keep the texture.

Suede Leather
Characteristics: Soft and velvety, made from the inner layer of the hide.
Cleaning: Brush off dirt gently.
Protection: Apply a suede-specific impregnation spray regularly.
Maintenance: Use a special brush after treatment to maintain the “hairy” surface. Avoid heavy waxes to keep the texture.

Full-Grain Leather
Characteristics: Smooth finish, very durable and water-resistant.
Cleaning: Use a soft brush and leather-specific cleaning agent.
Protection: Apply leather wax or grease regularly.
Maintenance: Keep the leather moisturized and nourished to prevent drying out. Properly treated leather should repel water effectively.'

Lundhags gives somewhat conflicting info on Nubuck care- above they say to avoid wax and grease- but in the same document they state-

"For nubuck boots, Toko Shoe Proof & Care spray maintains the suede-like finish. However, for maximum waterproofing, use wax or grease, which will eventually develop a rich patina."

Mine will look just like yours after proofing. I used to do the same thing to my La Sportiva mountaineering (a word that has gone out of fashion) boots- which I used to order 1.5 sizes too big because of the damn Italian lasts + the fact that way-back-then there was not much selection in that category. My Alaskas were protected under an over-boot so I only lightly sprayed them with Niki wax.

Have you tried applying a little bit of Lundhags boot grease occasionally to stop the dryness? I was thinking of using that for a base layer then then wax over it when it has soaked in, but I am worried the grease will soften the boot too much.

Interesting that Lundhags publishes a list of their boot repair costs-

https://cdn.sanity.io/files/mak2wjo7/lu ... 9820e5.pdf

Example: If I wanted new bottoms put on my Guide's it would cost me 210 EUR, plus shipping both ways- considering that I paid 240 EUR for these boots new that seems like a non-starter. I wonder if any of their repairs make economic sense (other than resoling hunting/hiking boots, which of course any competent boot-repair shop can do).

I might visit Lundhags in Jarpen for a recon after I finish my March tour, the town is on the Trondheim-Stockholm rail-line right by Åre (the Aspen of Sweden, and hometown of Henrik Lundqvist aka King Henrik, former NY Rangers goalie, YES I am a long suffering Rangers fan).

BTW The Ski-March boot is also made from Perwanger leather (but full grain). Perwanger is one of the great boot-component makers from Italy, like Vibram which was founded by the Italian climber Vitale Bramani.

I use Zamberlain boot dressing, it’s a water based silicon. I has worked on my Alaska and Ski March boots, as well as work boots. I manage paving projects, plenty of mud and water. I don’t avoid walking in anything the other men are walking in.

@fisheater Ah Zamberlan. They are ten minutes from here, right at the base of the Piccolo Dolomites, the foothills of the main Dolomite ranges (Brenta and Oriental) with peaks up to 2259m ( 7,500ft) in the Piccole.

Zamberlan have a nice mountain shop next to their factory with great prices on "blemished" boots. I usually can't find the blemish, they have very strict quality control. I have a pair of somewhat heavy hiking boots from them in black full-grain leather (in wide) and I use their waterproofing product (Hydro-bloc) on them. Being almost neighbors with Perwanger it is not surprising that most of their boots are made from this leather. Ditto Alico who is near here too, kind of boot central here with Asolo Boot nearby, Scarpa is also in the town of Asolo (beautiful town). The incestuous Italian boot industry is all around me. The majority of the plastic ski boots in the world are made around Treviso.

The Zamberlan factory is near a wool mill (now apartments) that served as a field hospital in ww1, Ernest Hemingway was a Red Cross driver based there, he lived in a flat over the Due Spade (two swords) cafe in nearby Schio- a nice place to have a coffee or a plate of pasta these days. John dos Passos was a RC driver a couple of towns over in Bassano del Grappa (distillery central!!).

I wish Zamberlan would make a BC ski boot!

This is a wood carving I saw in the Zamberlan factory shop...and yes we have bears here, Brown bears with that hump.

lilcliffy wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 30, 2024 8:06 pm

...
Regardless- I too do not understand the reasoning for using rough-out treated leather in ski touring boots and modern mountaineering boots-...

Rough out full grain leather protects the smooth leather side, the side that is really the durable waterproof layer of the full grain, from being cut/scraped or otherwise damaged by crampons, ski edges, rocks, branches, you name it, helping to preserve the integrity of the waterproofness. More waterproofing wax can also be absorbed by the rough-out side than the closed pores of the smooth side.

Don't know if this reasoning holds up in long term practice, but that is your general answer as it was described to me years ago by the great boot-taker in Estes Park, CO, Steve Komito, and by boot salesmen from all the major Italian boot makers of the time during the very many years I worked in retail and wholesale mountaineering equipment and tele ski equipment sales, i.e., the Kastinger, Asolo, Norrona, Fabiano, and etc. sales reps.

Fwiw, "split leather" resembles rough out leather, but lacks the smooth closed-pore side of the leather and is therefore not able to be waterproofed.

"Nubuck" leather is split leather treated with a polyurethane coating to resemble full grain leather and act as a waterproofing, but is not breathable like full grain leather. Even when full grain is waterproofed it is more breathable than Nubuck. Once Nubuck PU coated leathers are scraped or cut, the waterproofing is more or less permanently compromised, vs. full grain, esp. full-grain rough out leathers.

Splits and pu coated splits are less expensive than full grain Swiss and Italian leathers, and more flexible in use, and are therefore used much more often in leather boots nowadays.

fgd135 wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 05, 2024 10:27 am

lilcliffy wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 30, 2024 8:06 pm

...
Regardless- I too do not understand the reasoning for using rough-out treated leather in ski touring boots and modern mountaineering boots-...

Rough out full grain leather protects the smooth leather side, the side that is really the durable waterproof layer of the full grain, from being cut/scraped or otherwise damaged by crampons, ski edges, rocks, branches, you name it, helping to preserve the integrity of the waterproofness. More waterproofing wax can also be absorbed by the rough-out side than the closed pores of the smooth side.

Don't know if this reasoning holds up in long term practice, but that is your general answer as it was described to me years ago by the great boot-taker in Estes Park, CO, Steve Komito, and by boot salesmen from all the major Italian boot makers of the time during the very many years I worked in retail and wholesale mountaineering equipment and tele ski equipment sales, i.e., the Kastinger, Asolo, Norrona, Fabiano, and etc. sales reps.

Fwiw, "split leather" resembles rough out leather, but lacks the smooth closed-pore side of the leather and is therefore not able to be waterproofed.

"Nubuck" leather is split leather treated with a polyurethane coating to resemble full grain leather and act as a waterproofing, but is not breathable like full grain leather. Even when full grain is waterproofed it is more breathable than Nubuck. Once Nubuck PU coated leathers are scraped or cut, the waterproofing is more or less permanently compromised, vs. full grain, esp. full-grain rough out leathers.

Splits and pu coated splits are less expensive than full grain Swiss and Italian leathers, and more flexible in use, and are therefore used much more often in leather boots nowadays.

My wife worked in Komito's shop in Estes resoling boots while she was in nursing school, an old friend. I saw Steve about five years ago when I was back in CO. Douglas Snively worked there too, he used to chuck boots out the window when he got pissed off (he went on to do a lot of rigging-climbing for Hollywood climbing flicks like Cliffhanger).

The leather used in the Lundhags Guide is "split leather" not full grain reversed.

fgd135 wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 05, 2024 10:27 am

Rough out full grain leather protects the smooth leather side, the side that is really the durable waterproof layer of the full grain, from being cut/scraped or otherwise damaged by crampons, ski edges, rocks, branches, you name it, helping to preserve the integrity of the waterproofness. More waterproofing wax can also be absorbed by the rough-out side than the closed pores of the smooth side.

Don't know if this reasoning holds up in long term practice, but that is your general answer as it was described to me years ago by the great boot-taker in Estes Park, CO, Steve Komito, and by boot salesmen from all the major Italian boot makers of the time during the very many years I worked in retail and wholesale mountaineering equipment and tele ski equipment sales, i.e., the Kastinger, Asolo, Norrona, Fabiano, and etc. sales reps.

Thank you very much for this post and explanation-
this is exactly what I have assumed/deduced from personal experience.
Strange though that I cannot get as rational/practical an explanation from the boot manufacturers (eg Scarpa/Alpina/Lundhags) themselves!

This makes complete sense when one is considering the likes of Nordic skates, metal ski edges, and crampons!

And there is certainly no question about the wax absorption!

"Nubuck" leather is split leather treated with a polyurethane coating to resemble full grain leather and act as a waterproofing, but is not breathable like full grain leather. Even when full grain is waterproofed it is more breathable than Nubuck. Once Nubuck PU coated leathers are scraped or cut, the waterproofing is more or less permanently compromised, vs. full grain, esp. full-grain rough out leathers.

Hmmm...While I certainly have seen- and temporarily owned (yuck!)- leather boots with a PU outer coating-

I currently own at least two boots that are described as being "nubuck" by the manufacturer (Scarpa Kinesis, Lundhags Juare), but the leather does not fit this description...They are both fully-thick, but intensively treated leathers...

Regardless- the rough-out/split leathers used in the Lundhags Nordic touring boots are definitely not "nubuck".

Thanks again!
Gareth