Telemark Talk / Telemark Tips Forum

The last couple days of skiing have introduced me to the wonders and horrors of heavily faceted snow, sugar snow, in other words.

We've had a long streak of clear cold weather without any new snow accumulation which has led to untracked snow developing heavy surface hoar and faceting beneath the snow surface. This is beautiful stuff to ski down, but it makes trying to go anywhere uphill a royal pain in the ass. My wife and I hit some spots the last couple days on M78s which are usually a wonderful off track ski but we were slipping and sliding all over, unable to get purchase to climb even gentle grades. Which is incredibly annoying to ski on, obviously.

My question for the old heads with more experience than me: how do you get purchase on this stuff? Or do I stay home and work on a puzzle and wait for better conditions. I resorted to herring bones, side stepping, traverses, etc to try and navigate terrain in ways that minimized slipping but I kinda feel like those snow conditions are just gonna be kind of a bitch on the ups no matter what. Skins might be an option I guess, maybe grip waxing?

Would love to be wrong though! Thanks in advance everyone!

Edit: Air temps for these outings have been around 12-18*F

Yes, you need skins. In my experience, fish scales don't grip at all in super loose powder or hard icy. Even on snow that favors fish scales, they are really only sufficient for mild climbs. For mountainous terrain you shouldn't head out without skins in your pack.

If the traction pattern on the m78 is anything like old annums, they don't grip very well compared to other traction patterns out there.

JB TELE wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 29, 2025 10:53 pm

Yes, you need skins. In my experience, fish scales don't grip at all in super loose powder or hard icy. Even on snow that favors fish scales, they are really only sufficient for mild climbs. For mountainous terrain you shouldn't head out without skins in your pack.

If the traction pattern on the m78 is anything like old annums, they don't grip very well compared to other traction patterns out there.

We weren't really on terrain that the M78s would normally need any help navigating, which made it all the more frustrating. Just gentle rolling terrain, not following skin tracks up the mountain or anything. But I do need to get skins for them anyways and this is a good reminder. I might experiment with grip waxing as well, having to fuss with skins on the terrain we were navigating seems like a major hassle. But, yeah skins are on the shortlist.

I kick wax scales. I usually apply a couple layers of Swix polar white to the entire ski base. If I’m slipping, I will apply kick wax in the same manner I would use on waxable skis. Really the only difference is you can’t scrape kick wax from scales, I have taken to using commercial wax strippers. Frankly, I like the time savings of commercial wax stripper versus citrus solvents I had been using.
However, sometimes you still need skins. I follow the general consensus here, and I do not apply skins to kick wax warmer than Swix Blue

fisheater wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 30, 2025 12:25 pm

I kick wax scales. I usually apply a couple layers of Swix polar white to the entire ski base. If I’m slipping, I will apply kick wax in the same manner I would use on waxable skis. Really the only difference is you can’t scrape kick wax from scales, I have taken to using commercial wax strippers. Frankly, I like the time savings of commercial wax stripper versus citrus solvents I had been using.
However, sometimes you still need skins. I follow the general consensus here, and I do not apply skins to kick wax warmer than Swix Blue

I have some kick wax coming in the mail and have read a bunch about the grip waxing of waxless skis from this forum. And I found a deal on some Black Diamond kicker skins, which are probably less than ideal but they were $45 on clearance rather than $200 for full length skins and, well, they'll be better than nothing. Now I kinda want this horrible snow to stick around so I can experiment and see what results I get

bmholt_ wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 30, 2025 4:12 pm

I have some kick wax coming in the mail and have read a bunch about the grip waxing of waxless skis from this forum. And I found a deal on some Black Diamond kicker skins, which are probably less than ideal but they were $45 on clearance rather than $200 for full length skins and, well, they'll be better than nothing. Now I kinda want this horrible snow to stick around so I can experiment and see what results I get
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You can get excellent full length Black Diamond Ascension skins on Ebay, brand new for about $15 a pair, will fit skis up to 210 cm I believe, 60mm width (and can be trimmed if needed). They are ex-military, there are thousands of pairs apparently. I have bought five pairs of them so far. On long tours I carry both Fischer Easy-skins (short, like your kicker-skin) and the full-length Ascension skins. You can't afford not to buy a pair!

I would not bother with grip wax at all if you have scales on your skis, if you must, then follow Fisheater's advice and buy some wax-remover because the gunk will gum up your scales bad. I would stick with skins and not go down the wax rabbit hole.

BTW the scales on the Fischer Traverse 78 and the Excursion 88 (and other models) climb 100% better than any other ski manufacturer's.

randoskier wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 31, 2025 2:32 am

You can get excellent full length Black Diamond Ascension skins on Ebay, brand new for about $15 a pair [...] You can't afford not to buy a pair!

[...]

BTW the scales on the Fischer Traverse 78 and the Excursion 88 (and other models) climb 100% better than any other ski manufacturer's.

Oh, wow, that is a deal. I'll definitely be picking up some of those thanks for the tip!

Also per the scale pattern on the Fischer skis, I know... My wife has a set of Traverse 78s that she uses when we're using skinnier skis and I take my Madshus M62s and she can walk up stuff that leaves me having to herring bone up. She thinks it's really funny, hahaha.

I'll probably still screw around with grip wax, maybe just once to see how it works compared to skins.

bmholt_ wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 31, 2025 3:27 pm

randoskier wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 31, 2025 2:32 am

You can get excellent full length Black Diamond Ascension skins on Ebay, brand new for about $15 a pair [...] You can't afford not to buy a pair!

[...]

BTW the scales on the Fischer Traverse 78 and the Excursion 88 (and other models) climb 100% better than any other ski manufacturer's.

Oh, wow, that is a deal. I'll definitely be picking up some of those thanks for the tip!

Also per the scale pattern on the Fischer skis, I know... My wife has a set of Traverse 78s that she uses when we're using skinnier skis and I take my Madshus M62s and she can walk up stuff that leaves me having to herring bone up. She thinks it's really funny, hahaha.

I'll probably still screw around with grip wax, maybe just once to see how it works compared to skins.

That's funny because I have both the Traverse 78 and the Madshus Eon (the M62 old version)! I replaced the Madshus with the Fischer Excursion 88 so the Madshus does not get much exercise anymore, it is lonely and sad.

Yeahhhh... Every time we're out on those skis she always goes, "Why don't you just replace those with some like my skis?" And I always hem and haw and argue that I already have skis I don't need to go buy more. But it is tempting when she just walks right up an incline!