Åsnes Rabb….nylon skin or klister?

[Jlars13]

Hi all,

I know this has been discussed to some extent over the years, but I haven’t found exactly what I’m looking for.

I just pulled the trigger on a pair of Asnes Rabb 68 skis and I’m very excited to get out and ski them. I’m planning a tour this weekend that falls in the beginner AT/ advanced XC category (for those who know Mt hood, either Boy Scout ridge or Tilly Jane). One tour is real mellow the whole way, but more up and down than rolling (mostly under 25, all under 30 degrees), the other is flat for about a mile, then climbs a short but steep (30-35 degrees ish) hill, then sustained low angle uphill.

Conditions will be spring-like, well above freezing most of the day. Hoping to get some early spring corn, there’s supposed to be a solid melt-freeze cycle with no precip for the next couple days. I’ve already hot waxed the skis with yellow Toko.

Here’s my problem: I accidentally ordered the nylon 58mm x-skin for the Rabb, not realizing how much they apparently suck for glide, per lots of internet comments. I’ve ordered a pair of the mohair as well but they won’t be delivered before the weekend.

This is my first pair of waxable skis (besides the woodies I made myself), and all I have is polar glide and some universal klister (k22, silver tube). I’ve used it exactly once, on a pine tar treated wooden base over the polar glide wax (it worked!).

Questions are as follows:

1. Am I going to have a bad time just slapping the nylon x-skin on the ski and going for either of these tours? Is it really that much worse than the not so great glide I get on my panorama m68 scales?

2. If yes to 1, is it a better idea to just send it with the klister and scrape it off before descending? More importantly, will this choice determine which tour makes more sense (specifically, will it be a nightmare trying to ascend a 30 degree slope with 100 kick turns)?

3. Am I good just slapping klister in the kick zone over the yellow toko I’ve already ironed in? Do I need more prep, more waxes?

4. Wtf do you do with the klister globs when you get it OFF the ski and onto your scraper???? It mostly just got all over my gloves last time….

Appreciate any and all advice or insight. My goal for these skis is to use them mostly for very long and/or low angle up-and-down tours, and primarily stick to skins (once I get the mohair). I’m very happy with my panoramas on rolling terrain and my hand-made skis on flats.

[neilmoomey]

I have used klister on my Rabbs and it works well for Springtime conditions. Just scrape the klister off with a steel scraper and use wax cleaner with a rag. I got some of those single packet Swix wax wipes but I don't know if they make them anymore. Bring a zip lock bag to dispose of and keep the smell down. I also have the nylon kicker skins and the racing skins. Yes I prefer the racing skins but you'll be fine for just one trip. Instead of Klister get some of the warmest kick wax you can find. Most of the time it will work just fine for Spring skiing and you can easily scrape it off.

Neil

[wabene]

I'll chime in on a couple of points, but I don't have experience with climbs as step as you mention.

1. I have the SB98 (similar to he M68) and have skied laps on my M62 wax base ski with nylon Transition skins. The scales on the 98 glide way better than the skin. I also don't like the feel of trying to do turns with a skin on. When I took the skin off for the final run down it was night and day better. The skins climb really well, better than even the outstanding Fischer Outback Crown.
2. It would be much easier to remove skins before the descent compared to wax, especially klister. Once you use a soft wax on your skis, you have to completely remove it before applying skins. That would not be great on tour.
3. Especially with lower cambered skis like the Rabb, kick wax durability is an issue. I had a hard time keeping kick wax on my M62's that had been base prepped, but didn't have glide wax in the kick zone. I ended up ironing in base binder in the kick zone, then I always start with a hard wax was like polar, then layer softer waxes over that. Maybe polar, green, then blue etc. This has proven very durable and I've never had the wax disappear even on long tours. Also, I have never stripped the base since then, a couple of years ago, and I've just been applying wax of the day before going out. My base binder has been used only once. Kick wax over glide wax like Toko yellow is the least durable situation.
4. I've used klister once, lol, can't help with that.

[pacificnomad]

Considering that you've glide waxed the entire base, you should probably opt for the x-skin for kick. I've got a pair of waxable Ingstads and just recently purchased a pair of the 58mm 70/30 mohair/nylon x-skins and they glide fairly well. Actually the glide initially was so so, but I trimmed about 4cm of skin (as recommended on by Asnes based on my ski length) and then I really buttered them up with some Swix C4 liquid glide wax and now they glide tolerably.

In terms of climbing performance, and all around performance in general, Klister will offer the best skiing experience for the conditions that you are describing. On transformed and icy snow Klister has a really nice feel. It grips and kicks in such a nice way. And the glide is supreme in a real levitation sensation kinda way. I think that the grip that Klister can offer is more comparable to a full length skin rather than an x-skin, when it's applied properly and skied in the right conditions. If you went tip to tail Klister (not necessary) you would not have a significant glide issue when descending down 25 degree slopes. Klister and other grip waxes don't really grip when the ski is gliding fast enough. The caveat is that it takes trial and error and time to get confident with waxing for grip. The one real downside to Klister is that once it's on there you're kinda locked in and if conditions change during a ski you'll need to know how to make changes in the field so that your skis will work.

Just last week I was skiing down around Diamond Lake OR (skied from the Three Lakes Sno Park to the Hemlock Cabin and back for the day). I had a layer of Rode Klister Multigrade (buy some) in the pocket and started skiing up the trail with awesome kick/glide on transformed snow. About a mile up it started dumping wet heavy snow, which promptly turned my skis into snow anchors. So I pulled over, scraped off the snow and applied a cover of Swix Blue Extra and very very lightly corked it and the result was money. Kick and glide returned with no icing. When you get back from this tour, strip that Toko Glide, apply Polar Kick tip to tail and practice with wax and Klister for the day. Bring a scraper and scrape red and violet before putting on that x-skin. For Klister sprinkle on some baby powder and scrape and then you're good to go with an x skin. The good people at Web Cyclery in Bend are super knowledgeable about kick waxing. Good luck!

[JB TELE]

Based on your description of the route, you are absolutely going to need full length, full coverage skins. Those kind of slope angles are way too steep for kick wax or kicker skins. Skins don't go over soft waxes, so that rules out any kind of kick waxing for this trip.

I use 30mm mohair x skins on my rabbs. They provide really good glide and grip better than fish scales on variable snow conditions. I can slide down mellow hills with them on but trying to do any turns is pretty janky. The nice thing about the x skins is you can put them on and take them off without taking your skis off. The 30mm mohair x skins with full length skins is a great combo. Nylon skins grip better but don't glide as well.

[fledersau]

If i may ad my mustard to the mix:

I've a Rabb and this winter i skied a lot with wax this winter.

What i'd probably try is apply a warm kick wax from the x-skin attachement to the boot heel or a little bit longer to start with, about 2-3 layers to see how it works on the day of skiing and bring the kicker skins with me.
Last week i had a springy day (-3 celsius and sun with 1 inch of fresh snow above alot of compacted powder in québec) and applied blue wax, it was perfect, glide was fantastic and on the steep climbs i could stamp my ski a few times in the soft snow and have a little buildup of snow below my foot that allowed me to climb a wall... on top, just kick it of and back to perfect glide.

If you feel that the wax works well, but doesn't grip enough in the steeps, no problem with applying it a little bit longer.
If you see that the wax doesn't work (either sticks to much or doesn't grip) it take it off and just install the kicker skins and keep them on for the climbs and flats and take them of for the longer descends (easily donne without taking of the ski) Maybe even you could even keep on some kick wax below your ball of foot to kick and glide on the flats without the skins.

I used the x-skins for climbing skintracks quite steep without any problem. They work great in the steeps when it's not fresh pow or to much off camber. i only use full skins when i go for mountain touring.

Personally i don't have experience with Klister...

[lilcliffy]

Klister is pure magic when the conditions suit it.
Pure grip and glide bliss.

But klister and skin adhesive→ no no.

I use talc powder to remove klister in the backcountry.
I use paper and heat to remove klister at home.

[Jlars13]

Thanks to everyone for the advice… went with the nylon kicker skins for the day. Chose the sustained lower angle tour rather than flat-to-steep. The nylon x-skins absolutely awful but it was the correct choice for the day. When people say there’s no glide, they’re not kidding. 0 Gide at all, might as well have been wearing snowshoes. Thats after hitting them with two separate skin wax treatments. However, the trail was unexpectedly icy all day, and for the first mile or so was littered with dirt, sticks, and pine needles, which could have been a mess with klister. The x skins had very good grip underfoot, but I would have used far less energy with full length climbing skins. I had to stomp constantly to make sure the camber was compressed and I wouldn’t slide backwards on my rocker tips and tails. Side-hilling on firm snow was terrifying and impossible - I had to take my skis off and walk. Downhill on narrow icy trails was awful - didn’t slow me down at all until it jerked me to a stop. Ripped them off very quickly.

My partner was on her fishscale skis and used climbing skins the whole way up. On the descent she went to practice tele turns on some side hills, and I tried throwing a couple layers of polar kick wax and then just a dab of klister on the skis to try to match her scales, but it didn’t work. No grip at all, except when I tried to fully compress the ski in a turn and then BAM! Full stop and over the handlebars. Fortunately a little corn starch and some scraping got the klister and polar off fast.

Overall I don’t think I’ll ever use the nylon x-skins again and I really see no use case for them - they do nothing a full length skin doesn’t do better, and full length nylon mohair blend skis glide far better. I’ll be cutting some old G3 skins down to size tonight and putting these x-skins on the sale rack. I’ll practice with the wax and take the advice to grab a couple different types.

The Rabb is an excellent ski. Once I ripped the skins off and got over my fears, they were snappy and quick to react on a narrow icy trail and I had much more confidence than I’m used to. Didn’t get a good feel for them on steeper or open slopes, but I may hit a couple runs in-bounds with them tomorrow to get a better idea.

Thanks again everyone!

[JohnSKepler]

Thanks to everyone for the advice… went with the nylon kicker skins for the day. Chose the sustained lower angle tour rather than flat-to-steep. The nylon x-skins absolutely awful but it was the correct choice for the day. When people say there’s no glide, they’re not kidding. 0 Gide at all, might as well have been wearing snowshoes. Thats after hitting them with two separate skin wax treatments. However, the trail was unexpectedly icy all day, and for the first mile or so was littered with dirt, sticks, and pine needles, which could have been a mess with klister. The x skins had very good grip underfoot, but I would have used far less energy with full length climbing skins. I had to stomp constantly to make sure the camber was compressed and I wouldn’t slide backwards on my rocker tips and tails. Side-hilling on firm snow was terrifying and impossible - I had to take my skis off and walk. Downhill on narrow icy trails was awful - didn’t slow me down at all until it jerked me to a stop. Ripped them off very quickly.

My partner was on her fishscale skis and used climbing skins the whole way up. On the descent she went to practice tele turns on some side hills, and I tried throwing a couple layers of polar kick wax and then just a dab of klister on the skis to try to match her scales, but it didn’t work. No grip at all, except when I tried to fully compress the ski in a turn and then BAM! Full stop and over the handlebars. Fortunately a little corn starch and some scraping got the klister and polar off fast.

Overall I don’t think I’ll ever use the nylon x-skins again and I really see no use case for them - they do nothing a full length skin doesn’t do better, and full length nylon mohair blend skis glide far better. I’ll be cutting some old G3 skins down to size tonight and putting these x-skins on the sale rack. I’ll practice with the wax and take the advice to grab a couple different types.

The Rabb is an excellent ski. Once I ripped the skins off and got over my fears, they were snappy and quick to react on a narrow icy trail and I had much more confidence than I’m used to. Didn’t get a good feel for them on steeper or open slopes, but I may hit a couple runs in-bounds with them tomorrow to get a better idea.

Thanks again everyone!

I did a tour last year that sounds a bit like what you did. I was using the Falketind 62 which is quite close to the Rabb68. I brought the nylon XSkin and a full length skin. It was a good thing that I did because the nylon skin was pretty useless. It did not climb as I'd hoped - kept sliding back - and glided about like tennis shoes on asphalt. I don't really see what purpose they serve but I've not thrown them away yet. I switched to the full-length skins and had a much easier time with the caveat that I was transitioning more than I wanted to. If I do a tour like that again I'll take my scaled Voile Objectives with a full-length skin.

I actually skied the FT62 more this year than in the past and finally figured out where it really shines: a few inches over hard pack in temperatures below 25 deg or so. Pretty much what we've had most of this winter. I understand this is exactly what the Norwegians have a lot of the time so it isn't really surprising they'd design such a ski. They also do pretty well on slightly deeper snow but powder skis they are NOT. If it is cold and snow is recent an FT62 (and probably a Rabb) fully-waxed with ironed-in Swix Polar White grip wax with a temperature specific kick wax in the pocket is a killer combination.

Maybe there's a use-case for the nylon XSkin but I've not yet discovered it.

[Jlars13]

I did a tour last year that sounds a bit like what you did. I was using the Falketind 62 which is quite close to the Rabb68. I brought the nylon XSkin and a full length skin. It was a good thing that I did because the nylon skin was pretty useless. It did not climb as I'd hoped - kept sliding back - and glided about like tennis shoes on asphalt. I don't really see what purpose they serve but I've not thrown them away yet. I switched to the full-length skins and had a much easier time with the caveat that I was transitioning more than I wanted to. If I do a tour like that again I'll take my scaled Voile Objectives with a full-length skin.

I actually skied the FT62 more this year than in the past and finally figured out where it really shines: a few inches over hard pack in temperatures below 25 deg or so. Pretty much what we've had most of this winter. I understand this is exactly what the Norwegians have a lot of the time so it isn't really surprising they'd design such a ski. They also do pretty well on slightly deeper snow but powder skis they are NOT. If it is cold and snow is recent an FT62 (and probably a Rabb) fully-waxed with ironed-in Swix Polar White grip wax with a temperature specific kick wax in the pocket is a killer combination.

Maybe there's a use-case for the nylon XSkin but I've not yet discovered it.

It’s always a struggle finding xcd gear that really works well with our snowpack… it’s so warm and wet most of the time that waxing seems almost not worth the trouble…. I’m going to see how the Rabb performs as an ultralight spring touring ski, see if full length skis and some nice corn snow will scratch the itch…..I may have to get better at skiing along the way.