Personal Philosophy: Ask permission or forgiveness?

[MikeK]

Is it me or are Americans becoming exceedingly rude?

I read this all the time, particularly from skiers regarding various subjects but mostly trespassing. I'm not really a huge proponent of private lands; the concept seems a bit silly to me, but as such I don't see the need to willfully break said laws because I probably can get away with it most of the time. Even on public lands this is an issue with certain individuals not being able to follow a simple set of rules (used to be considered common sense) which are enforced to keep them safe AND keep public areas enjoyable for everyone, not just them.

As I see it the 'better to ask forgiveness than permission' mantra is no different than the 'me first' attitude that crops up so frequently these days. Everything is cool as long as I get mine, right? It seems arrogant, ignorant and rude.

And don't get me wrong - I break laws, and very willfully mind you, but I do so with full knowledge of the consequences. Also I feel this is the kind of thing where it's more of a social convention and etiquette than law. It's like littering, driving too slow in the fast lane, passing on the right, post holing trails, etc...

[Johnny]

I don't think it's an American thing. This is where the entire human race is heading. I call it hypocrisy.
Just think about MP3s... If one can steal (or do something immoral) and be sure not to get caught, they sure will do it... This is where we are right now as an 'advanced' race. And it became not only tolerated, but encouraged...

[video][/video]

[MikeK]

I see what you are saying - but I guess I've always been on that bandwagon i.e. wrt drugs, speed limits, etc...

Are those things immoral? Or are they just laws because some said they should be? Things like speed limits are there for very good reason - to keep others safe, but rarely are they obeyed.

Drug laws and the war on drugs I simply do not understand... and I've seen the shittiest things happen to addicts, but I still don't think making them illegal fixes anything. It just makes a market for real criminals to get rich and overcrowd our jails with the middle men of the trade.

Stealing does seem to be immoral. But regulation of art is fairly hypocritical in my mind. The one good thing I see from this music revolution is more emphasis is put on live performance now, which I like, because that's the only way the artist can make a living in that industry these days.

And wrt to land, if everything was public except your personal dwelling, there would be no such questions... but would it be chaos? Would people then just band together and war over land or areas they felt was their territory? Traditionally native Americans did this even though they did not recognize land ownership.

Anyway what is the harm in asking someone permission for something rather than just doing it? Is it the fear they will say no and you won't get to do what you want to do, or then will have to break the law or their wishes willfully to get what you want? On an extreme case isn't this what rape is?

I guess it's just easy to be ignorant and deal with it later. Seems like our entire outlook on every major issue that affects us...

[connyro]

Reasons people don't ask permission:

Instant gratification
Path of least resistance
Sense of entitlement

IMO, private land ownership is good. I don't want the government in its infinite wisdom owning it all and making typical government decisions that serve only those in power. Where I live, we have the CFA (Commercial Forest Act) program that allows for public non-motorized recreation on enrolled private land in exchange for a big tax break on the property for the owners. It allows anyone foot-access for hunting/fishing/hiking/skiing on a great deal of privately-owned land without needing the owner's permission.

[MikeK]

We have what are called 'conservation easements' inside our park boundaries. Kind of a neat concept but not as inclusive as what you have. The benefit to the owner in this case is you do not have to pay taxes on the land. The benefit to the state is they have some say over what you can do with the land, which they kind of do anyway even on regular private land via town regs and in the Adirondacks, the APA. Mostly the easements are supposed be for preserving wildlife and forest, but they work in favor of recreation too in certain cases. Some allow access to other trails and holdings of public land. I don't believe it is legal to go anywhere you want on these easements though, at least not to my knowledge. The paths and roads on them are more like rights of way.

There are lot of people in this state who think the state owning as much land as they do is a bad thing. They point out that preserves are abused by recreational users and that the state doesn't have the resources to properly manage what it has. I find it quite amusing because most of those that point that out are the biggest users of said lands... they are just sore it isn't exactly how they want it to be... such is the case in shared lands.

Also there are some interesting cases of public access, privately owned land that works very well. Well provided you play by the rules the owners set forth. Being privately owned allows them some say in what they allow and what they don't. Not everyone is so generous in allowing that kind of thing though.

Where I grew up there is very little public land, but I knew everyone and they didn't care if I went walking around on their land. The only issues that ever arose were from hunting and fishing. People tend to get territorial about that. Despite that if I don't know the owner or have permission, I stay out - for my own safety and for their privacy.

[connyro]

That's the nice thing about the CFA program: you don't need permission to be on the CFA land. That being said, we have much less population density where I live compared to upstate NY, so conflicts and overuse are pretty rare.