Asnes Mountain Race 48 SKIN

[wabene]

@Capercaillie said
"The other downside are the adjustable bindings. If you are climbing/descending slopes long enough that you do want to adjust the bindings, AFAIK other than Rottefella Move, you need to take off the skis to adjust them. Older Fischer bindings even needed a special tool. Not much more time to put on nylon insert skins that are going to climb far better, and then have a smooth ski for the descent. The adjustable bindings are also inherently more fragile. Apparently Rottefella Move bindings can simply come unglued:"

@Capercaillie I have NIS 1 plates on my Madshus Fjeltech M50's which need the key to move. I want to try the Move version and see if I actually would adjust during turs. I was thinking I could use my older style NIS manuals on some Nordic skates and get the Move for the M50'S. If I go that route it is knowing that the Move on NIS 1 requires mounting the actual switch with adhesive. That switch however only moves the binding, the binding is held on by the NIS plate. That plate doesn't seem like it would be prone to coming loose. Aren't some airplane wings glued on? Adhesives have come a looong way. The weak link for me would be wear of the seemingly flimsy mechanical link of the binding to the plate. However with care while adjusting I'm not worried about mine failing. I have two years of hard use on my probably most used ski and all is good.

As far as having to take the ski off to adjust the bindings, it seems similar to adjusting kick wax. If you get it right at the trailhead, all good. If you have to adjust, pull over. It is easier to move the binding with a key than it is to kick wax two skis. Sure a Move binding with a mechanism that operated by mere thought would be great, , but I do like my moveable NNN binding. I move it based on conditions and have it as far back as I can while still getting kick. That is the same way I approach my waxable skis, glide over kick. I find my recessed skins skis very fast with no drag in most conditions. These are just grab n go like sliced bread. At 182 lbs (84K) I ski them in 205's. I have many skis with attachable surface mount kicker skins like the Gamme, Madshus Panorama M62 and the S-Bound 98. This kind of skin will never glide as fast as recessed skins. My Gammes are the best, of course that's because it has the most camber. They are fun with mohair in the spring.

The M50's are my go to on groomed or hard pack for fast rolling terrain fun. I don't think NNN is obsolete until they come up with a NNN BC binding that moves. I would not get a double camber recessed skin ski with a binding that couldn't move and adjust that furry patch. Of course @Johnny the second generation Explore binding will quash all others with the new adjustable binding plate,

[Inspiredcapers]

Capercaillie- I was out on my Gammes this afternoon and came across some of the mountain bike/hiking type of trails you described. They’re packed down with a few inches of powder on top- couldn’t resist making a pass on them but there were several times I was thinking “bad idea, you’re on 210’s here…”. Might have to check Kijiji for something shorter for messing around on trails.

[beeeweee]

I have a few hundred KMs on my Move bindings and haven’t had issues with them. I now have 3 pairs of skis with MOVE bindings, 2 with integrated MOVE 3.0 plates that attached to the skis, plus the RMP NIS 3.0 plate on my MR48 Skin skis.

If you get the newest version of the MOVE Plate (RMP NIS 3.0) it does not require you to stick on the MOVE Switch plate as it comes built-in on the NIS 3.0 version. Also, the older 1.0 version which requires the extra plate is adhered to the skis using double sided tape. Anytime you glue or tape things, you need to ensure the ski surface is roughened and immaculately clean. Otherwise the glue/adhesive will bond to whatever gunk, oil, wax, etc… that is on the ski and not the ski’s top coat.

On another note, Salomon and Atomic also have skis with adjustable bindings that can be moved with a turn of a knob but they are only on their higher end race XC skis.

[Musk Ox]

For classic (narrow) touring skis, I think waxable ones with an insertable skin are much more versatile. I don't know if I am going to sell my skin skis, but I definitely won't be buying another pair.

This is kind of why I traded mine in for a pair of Gammes. The skin skis were incredibly convenient, but I really ended up using mine in very specific conditions and circumstances, like if you know it's going to get above freezing after you set out, or if you're climbing up far enough for it to get colder, or if there's slush.

They're good on hard snow as long as there's some loose stuff on top, and really shine in wet conditions... but my other skis with the narrowest skins on have pretty much the same advantages... more drag on hard snow and ice, yes, but it's a game of compromises. There really is something to be said for the convenience of skin skis, and they are super useful (my wife loves hers).

[Capercaillie]

I find my recessed skins skis very fast with no drag in most conditions. These are just grab n go like sliced bread.

I agree, and that has been my experience as well. For the one application chris_the_wrench mentioned, skiing down roads, is where I like them least. The grades are not steep enough to overcome the initial friction from the skin. I read some people have the same experience with fishscales. I am not skiing mine short either - I am around 75kg, the 194cm Atomic Savor 48 is specced for 70kg to 85kg, the paper test confirms it, and both cambers feels as stiff as either of my 205cm skis. Believe it or not, the 194cm is also made in an even stiffer version for people 80kg to 95kg.

The M50's are my go to on groomed or hard pack for fast rolling terrain fun.

What is the front of the M50 like? This is where I think one of the most important distinctions in these narrow class of skis is going to be. As Johnny said, the MR48 have a "very nice Nordic Rocker." The Fischer TN59 should also be a ski comparable to the MR48, M50, and T50, but the advertising lists that it has "Nordic Rocker Camber," just like the advertising for the TN66. If the front of the TN59 is anything like the floppy front of my TN66, I would not want to ski the TN59. The rocker on the TN66 makes pressuring into turns easy, but is that something you really want to do on a narrow ski? And if you do, that means you are probably going to want to go from soft 500g NNN boots to 700g+ stiff NNNBC boots. 40% weight increase without considering the bindings. It just gets you farther and farther away from having a light ski you can step into turns, but the real problem is now you are going to have all the disadvantages of trail breaking with a narrow ski together with all the disadvantages of trail breaking with a rockered ski. On breakable crust, every stride on my TN66 feels like I'm postholing - because essentially that is what is happening.

I would really like to see a side-by-side comparison of the rocker and stiffness of the MR48, T50, and M50.

Might have to check Kijiji for something shorter for messing around on trails.

I got my Alpina 1500Ts off of Kijiji and it was the best $5 CAD I ever spent. Came with poles too and I didn't even bargain. Some of these old classic touring skis are really good.

Also, the older 1.0 version which requires the extra plate is adhered to the skis using double sided tape. Anytime you glue or tape things, you need to ensure the ski surface is roughened and immaculately clean. Otherwise the glue/adhesive will bond to whatever gunk, oil, wax, etc… that is on the ski and not the ski’s top coat.

This happened on my Atomic Savor 48 skis: the front of the Prolink plate was held down by a 1cm square of double-sided adhesive tape and was peeling up on both skis. I did not know how much of the plate was glued on and how much screwed in, so took the skis to the shop. The tech showed me how to take the binding off the plate and where the plate screw mounts were - fortunately only the very front of the plate was glued on. The Prolink plate is molded flat, the top of the ski curves down, so I explained that the plate is probably pulling itself up off the top of the ski and suggested trying to screw in the front of the plate. The tech thought that covering the entire front of the plate with double-sided adhesive tape would do the trick, so we decided to do that. By the time I picked the skis up 2 weeks later, the new tape had already come unglued on both skis. At least the repair was free and it's just a cosmetic issue.

The double-sided adhesive tapes 3M has been coming out with in the past 15 years are very impressive, however if you look at their promotional videos all the applications are using very long runs of tape. There is probably a reason for that.

The skin skis were incredibly convenient, but I really ended up using mine in very specific conditions and circumstances

That's why I might keep mine, depending on how klister goes in the spring. Already had one encouraging day on Swix V60 Red/Silver this season. Last season was mostly skiing ice (actual ice, where a lot of places couldn't even groom) and am curious to compare skin skis to ice (blue) klister as well if those conditions come up.

[Smitty]

I kick myself in the ass for not getting the MR48 waxable when they were still available, I would’ve liked to try those out.

I swung by Norsemen when I was in Calgary yesterday, and they had a few pairs of new-old-stock waxable MR48's left, as well as full stock of MR48 Skins. They weren't what I was after, so didn't look specifically at what lengths they had, but there were a few options. Might be worth a call over there. Wish I would have caught up on this string before I went to the city, I would have taken a closer look for you!

As far as I know, Norsemen still doesn't like shipping skis, but if you or someone you know will be through Calgary this season it could be an option. Or if you were in a bind, I could probably pick them up and ship them to you next time I'm in Calgary - it just might be a month or two before I'm back in the city.

[Capercaillie]

Sure a Move binding with a mechanism that operated by mere thought would be great, , but I do like my moveable NNN binding.

I was out on my skin skis yesterday, and it occurred to me that I already have this on my road bike: the SRAM eTap electronic derailers are wireless and run a tiny servo motor off of a 24g Li-Ion battery (good for over 1,000km of shifting) and a coin cell for the handlebar levers (good for about a year). No reason why it wouldn't work for movable bindings with buttons on pole handles (figuring out a convenient arrangement that also prevents unintended shifting would probably be the hardest part). Skip the user controls entirely and use tilt and accelerometer sensors to auto-adjust. Rottefella should hire us as product development consultants.

The outing was on rollercoaster hiking trails. Based on ideas from this thread I decided to slam the Prolink all the way forward for max grip and see what would happen. Comparing GPX tracks to a very similar (rolling 17km ± 0.5) outing on another trail in the same area on 205cm Fischer TN66, average speed went up 1km/h due to faster climbing. No surprise there. The feeling was very different though. Having to double-pole to pick up speed on the downhills evened out the exertion over the very rolling terrain. Overall a lot more pleasant, climbing much more so.

One thing I want to add about single-track: wear eye protection. I got into the habit of wearing safety glasses to cut windchill on overcast days, and it saved me a very stiff stick in the eye last year.

[GrimSurfer]

Sure a Move binding with a mechanism that operated by mere thought would be great, , but I do like my moveable NNN binding.

I was out on my skin skis yesterday, and it occurred to me that I already have this on my road bike: the SRAM eTap electronic derailers are wireless and run a tiny servo motor off of a 24g Li-Ion battery (good for over 1,000km of shifting) and a coin cell for the handlebar levers (good for about a year). No reason why it wouldn't work for movable bindings with buttons on pole handles (figuring out a convenient arrangement that also prevents unintended shifting would probably be the hardest part). Skip the user controls entirely and use tilt and accelerometer sensors to auto-adjust. Rottefella should hire us as product development consultants.

The outing was on rollercoaster hiking trails. Based on ideas from this thread I decided to slam the Prolink all the way forward for max grip and see what would happen. Comparing GPX tracks to a very similar (rolling 17km ± 0.5) outing on another trail in the same area on 205cm Fischer TN66, average speed went up 1km/h due to faster climbing. No surprise there. The feeling was very different though. Having to double-pole to pick up speed on the downhills evened out the exertion over the very rolling terrain. Overall a lot more pleasant, climbing much more so.

One thing I want to add about single-track: wear eye protection. I got into the habit of wearing safety glasses to cut windchill on overcast days, and it saved me a very stiff stick in the eye last year.

Good point on the eye protection.

A skiing pirate would look wrong.

[beeeweee]

I took the MR48S out for a short 5km ski on the local machine tracks today for fun since I haven’t skied these since last spring. The conditions were cold (-10°C) but firm and I was able to get good kick and glide after moving the bindings 6-12mm forward. The pair I have are 190cm which is long for my weight at 60kg with gear but I do expect they are a more ideal length for softer conditions than the 180cm for myself. I skied a short section where the tracks were only skier tracked and the 190s had better kick and still maintained good glide so I think for such conditions, the 190s are preferable. Since I do have race track skis, I don’t normally use the MR48S so a disadvantage in machine set tracks are not really a big deal for me.

For set tracks, I definitely notice the difference in glide compared to my trusty Madshus Race Pro Skins (RPS). Those things are somehow just magical in track but they totally suck on skier tracked terrain. Horses for courses, as the saying goes. The MR48S is probably around 25% slower than the RPS but that’s pretty impressive considering we’re talking about a metal edged ski that’s 20% wider than the RPS and is more of a touring ski than a racing ski.

For the steeper climbs, I definitely get way better kick on the RPS than the MR48S. I can basically jog up a hill on the RPS because they’re so darn light whereas the MR48S take more work and I need to herring bone sooner than I’d otherwise need to on the RPS.

Just a side note on bindings. I mounted the MOVE Tune bindings on the MR48S unlike all my other classic skis which have MOVE Switch bindings. The MOVE Tune bindings are technically skate bindings but I’ve swapped out the skate flexors with classic flexors since I’m skiing classic on these bindings. The main advantage is that I have a larger range of movement available on the MOVE Tune bindings (+18/-30mm) compared to the MOVE Switch (+12/-24mm) and there are finer increments of adjustments available on the MOVE Tune (6mm increments) compared to the MOVE Switch (12mm increments). However, it also takes more turns of the knob on the MOVE Tune compared to the MOVE Switch. If you don’t need the extra 6mm or finer increments of adjustability, then the MOVE Switch is more convenient to use. I’ll probably swap in a pair of MOVE Switch on the MR48S if I find a good deal on them and use the MOVE Switch on proper skate skis at some point.

Overall, this was a fun experiment, mainly for shits and giggles to see how these skis perform in different conditions. In the future, I’ll stick with my RPS for set track skiing and leave the MR48S for skier tracked trails as that’s where they really excel.

[Theme]

Great input y'all. Convinced me to get a pair. Not disappointed yet.

Actually, pretty impressed. Got the 210, mounted with Xplore and currently skiing Alaska XP until the Pioneer Pro stocks. Last I skied classic skis, bindings and boots was about 15 years ago, so mostly coming from Nordic touring backgrounds.

On some ascents I am experiencing a 5-10 cm slide backwards before I get a grip. I am about 70kg with just boots and clothes on. The shop got the placement of bindings wrong, they are about a centiemeter too far back. Mostly I intended these skis to be used with a pack of 10-20kg on. I feel that the lenght is great for me for this purpose, although I still need to try the skis with a heavier pack on. Unfortunately I will not be able to do any spring skiing either this season to test the edges. So far I don't see myself doing many turns - step turnning and jump turning is the way to go with these. So great for the distance.

So far so good. I will try with a pack on, and if I so determine, get the bindings moved forward. This far I have been able to fly on groomed tracks, snowmobile tracks, my own forest ski tracks, and snowshoe/sleddog tracks. In VERY deep powder, 50-100cm, the tail sinks badly. On some declines I can just about balance enough to have okay float if I am going down fast enough. The colder the weather, the better the climb. Could go almost as steep up as with mohair 45mm x-skins, although with a lot less security on the steps. New snow at mild freezing temperatures on a solid base, as always, has been challenging for grip. But phenomenal glide.

The skis are quite light, and some 10% of ski weight variance is noticeable, comparing one ski to another. As the balance points were off and these were mounted at the furthest back one, one ski feels more front heavy, affecting skateability. Oh it is a blast they don't sand the pavements around here.
When returning from my day trips I've got a sweet slight decline of a road to take back home. Super speedy skating. There is a drag skating if some new snow is on top, though.

-20°C and lower has been way more friction for kick and glide. Especially on 1-5cm powder on top. Think I should glide wax my skis. Just have been waiting to break the skins in before trying a (very worn out) pair of x-skins on top, after a complete wax job.