Fischer S Bound 98 and Madshus Epoch

[Love the Sierra]

Thanks again @lilcliffy and @Manney
My son has the same s bound 88’s that I have. I was surprised that his have noticeably more spring and are about 1/2 cm higher than mine. Indeed, I have skied 5 more years on mine but since I live in So Cal and local snow is hit and miss and we have to take a trip to really ski, I do not have that many moe miles on mine. I would say that in a year, I only ski about 150-200 miles.
I am leaning towards getting the Madshus Panorama 68 with 3 pin removable cable bindings. My hope is that between these and the Fisher 88’s I will be able to better match conditions to the set up. (I forgot to mention,, my 88’s have 3 pin mountaineer with no cable.)
If I get the Panorama 68 now from Telemark Down, I can save about $200. …But I bet that I would need new skins. I have a magical pair of Nearly brand new Pomoca s glide that are cut to my 88’s. I will do a review when I can. I LOVE these skins. Getting them was life changing!

[Manney]

There are production differences… and differences in camber if the length is different. Once you have 2-3 pairs of skis, you’ll notice different responses. Some of these might be enough to give up skinning one or more pairs… just using them for gentle terrain etc.

There will be a learning curve grip waxing (if you go this route for new skis)… especially if you get a pair online and don’t have a chance to have them fitted on a table.

Also spend the extra money at your local shop to have the bases prepared (initial wax and scrape to remove the ptex hairs left over from production, a good hand polishing, and application of base prep wax to keep the structure open for future waxing). A lot of ppl don’t do this but it makes a difference in ski performance (every single competitive skier, downhill of XC, works with their wax tech to dial in skis because it helps win races and improve consistency in training).

[lilcliffy]

I am leaning towards getting the Madshus Panorama 68 with 3 pin removable cable bindings. My hope is that between these and the Fisher 88’s I will be able to better match conditions to the set up.

From reading the other thread-
remember that the P68 is the same ski as the Epoch you tested- it will be more tiring uphill due to less grip than your 88. You will likely need to use skins more with the P68...

If I get the Panorama 68 now from Telemark Down, I can save about $200. …But I bet that I would need new skins. I have a magical pair of Nearly brand new Pomoca s glide that are cut to my 88’s. I will do a review when I can. I LOVE these skins. Getting them was life changing!

Are the skins cut to length or width?
The P68 is the same width as your Fischer 88.

[Manney]

Two skis…

P68: 98/68/84mm (Madshus Panorama)
E88: 88/68/78mm (Fisher Excursion)

Both the same width underfoot. So handle the same, right? Not necessarily.

Big difference in surface area, which can (in theory) be exploited by different camber stiffness to achieve different handling characteristics. How does this work in practice tho?

The Fischer chart for the E88 specifies a 169cm ski for a weight range of 100-150 lbs. The Madshus chart for the P68 specifies a 162cm ski for a weight range of 90-125 lbs. A 172cm ski is specified for 120-150 lb skier. So if you’re, say, 120-140 lbs (dry versus equipped), you’re on skis of either 169 (E88) or 172 cm (P68). So a mere inch difference in length and the exact same width under foot. . Sounds like the skis will handle the same, right?

Since the area of the skis are quite different (the P68 is considerably wider at the shovel and somewhat wider at the tail), the P68 probably has slightly softer camber. This is something the weight charts seem to reflect after applying some fuzzy logic (even though the different lengths makes a 1:1 comparison difficult).

We know a softer camber ski handles differently than a stiffer ski. It’s easier to carve in the turns but a bit slower on the flats. More side cut is something normally associated with a carving ski (though let’s be honest… we’re not talking WC skis here). We also know that side cut affects straight line tracking, which is why so many long distance skis are straight cut or even reverse side cut designs. It follows, therefore that the P68 will respond differently under foot than the E88.

Some ppl might write this off as overanalyzed bullshit. They might be right… except it coincides with the manufacturer’s own appraisal of their ski’s strengths and weaknesses.

Yup. Madshus actually says that this ski is more oriented to downhill turns than rolling terrain touring. Not all that surprising after thinking about how skis work.

The Excursion 88? That’s described as more of a XC oriented ski:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2455&sid=aaf7a4cd9 ... a423d3326e

It’s not enough to look at one number (width underfoot) and say two skis from two manufacturers will handle the same. We know it’s a lot more complicated than that. Gotta look at the whole ski, surface area, camber, shovel/mid/tail, side cut etc. It won’t tell you everything but will be more accurate than simply comparing the width at the mid point and declaring the skis to be functionally identical.

[Love the Sierra]

Thank you so much!
Yes, after LOTS of reading, I have come to the conclusion that I really should NOT buy any skis without testing them first. Happily, Mammoth Mountaineering told me that they rent most of these different skis, but not with three pin bindings, so it still will not be an adequate test. Some have three pin cables and some have nnn bindings. Anyway, come Nov or Dec, I will rent a bunch and try to figure it out.
I ended up buying and keeping the Crispi Svartisen. With thick socks, that I usually wear anyway, the heel slips a bit, but I do not think it will be a problem. I stuck with the 41. Martin at Telemark Down was correct saying the 40 would fit exactly. However, I was concerned that downhill after a long day with swollen, wet feet, they would squish my toes like my old BCX that started all of this. So, I am getting the 41. I know that a tighter fit gives more control, just like ice skates. However, I prefer a bit more space, less control and more comfort.
Finally, after all of this conversation, I took a good look at my skis and discovered that the right ski has significantly less camber than my daughter’s or even than my left! Weird. My left has less than my daughter’s, but only slightly. I have skied much more than both kids, but I wish I had skied enough to blow out the camber. It must have been that way from the start and I never noticed. I got them as cheaply as possible on sale from a small store, so who knows. Anyway, my son needed money and used his skis for only a couple of seasons so, I bought his from him. The camber is nice and stiff and springy. I look forward to using them next season. I am very curious to compare his with mine.
My daughter commented “You know, when we ski together, you always say you have no glide and need wax much more often than I do and I need to put the skins on sooner than you do.” Anyway, it is curious. The craziest part is that the right ski is visibly flatter than the left. I skijor and I am always focused on my dog so maybe that is why I did not notice the difference? We ski pretty rugged, variable backcountry trails so maybe that is why I didn’t notice? Anyway weird.

[Manney]

Good to hear you’ve found boots and are happy with the fit.

Big advantage to testing skis before you buy. Often hard to do but you’ve got a line on how to crack that nut, so good for you. Your next pair are sure to be special… the first skis *you* choose based on how they match your impressions during actual use.

Sounds like you’re on a really good track there.

WRT camber, a good ski shop will match the skis from the boatload they receive. Doing so negates production tolerances and results in more consistent performance. A skier can adapt to most things but not inconsistency… which is why it’s also not a bad idea to mark l-r ski when using an NNN BC setup. (The wear on the top sheets will also reveal consistent control errors that a skier can consciously work to resolve mid season. Found this out many seasons ago… lots of marking on the tail of my LH ski showed timing and angle errors herringboning.)

[fisheater]

LtS I personally would be concerned about a heel lifting. It can be remedied. A heel lift pad is usually the first step, but there also pads that take up volume around the ankle bone as well.
I included a link:
https://www.tognar.com/search.php?searc ... on=product

[Musk Ox]

Heel-lift, ew.

Just to add to fisheater's link, and to state the very obvious, another really simple way of preventing heel-lift is to buy or make some innersole-shaped spacers/shims/insulating beds to slip under the innersole of your Crispis.

A pair of those foil-backed insulating undersole things from the shoe shop ought to reduce the volume of your boots enough to help.

And liner socks. As you no doubt know, because you have feet and have worn boots outside before.

[wabene]

I'll have to edit this because apparently I need to knock off some summer rust. I have the M78's not the M68'S, so my comparison doesn't fit the OP. Apologies, lol.

Prolly to late to chime in, but I have both the new blue SB98's and the new M68's(78). I like them both. The 98 is stiffer and has slightly better grip. In firm conditions I find it easier to get on edge and control the 98. In softer conditions the 68(78) is more fun surfing down the hill. I also think the 68(78) glides a little faster and floats faster in soft snow. When traveling unknown terrain looking for turns, I will grab the 98. If I find a sweet powder run I might come back with the 68's(78).