The new Rottefella XPLORE OFFTRACK Binding System Review

Real reviews by real skiers. What a concept! Add your own today. Reviews only please, questions can be posted as replies but new threads looking for opinions should be posted to the main Telemark Talk Forum.
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lilcliffy
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Re: The new Rottefella XPLORE OFFTRACK Binding System Review

Post by lilcliffy » Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:00 pm

Johnny wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:12 am
Woodserson wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:42 pm
I only have been able to source black and red flexors. Is the Xplore going to use the same color system for their flexors? Are the white X flexors as stiff as the NNN-BC flexors? Also, do you have any spare white NNN-BC flexors? I've never skied the whites.
I used to buy mine at Akers and Nordic Skater... I hope they won't become memories of the past, like the Red (and the Black!) NTN tubes I love so much... I might have an extra pair, I will check at my "warehouse"... (Or perhaps I could lend you a pair, so you can finally throw away all those stinky cables and discover the secret NNN-BC truth and the blissful joys of cableless telemark skiing... 8-) )
I just bought some more red NNNBC flexors at Akers- they were sold out of white.
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.

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lilcliffy
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Re: The new Rottefella XPLORE OFFTRACK Binding system

Post by lilcliffy » Sat May 01, 2021 7:16 pm

Åsnes1922 wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:38 am
What really puzzles me, is why this review got published at all, as the binding and boots used in the "test" were not even close to the models we have been testing after new years.
Thank you for the clarification- this is exactly what I suspected.
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.





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lowangle al
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Re: The new Rottefella XPLORE OFFTRACK Binding System Review

Post by lowangle al » Sun May 02, 2021 11:57 am

Woodserson wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:22 am
A plastic boot in this system would need an outrageously stiff flexor to overcome the leverage that a plastic boot is going to generate.

I don't see this as being a T4 replacement, that's not going to happen. (unless they add cables :twisted: )

The lateral twisting demonstrated in the video that Shenanagains posted is still concerning to me. Without rails.... welp it'll be interesting.
This system wouldn't replace my T4s which I can use with my widest skis(112 uf). But surely there can be something that that skis tighter than a 3 pin or even a cable binding with leather boots on a ski around 70 or 80 underfoot.

As far as cables go, why would you need them if you have stiff flexors Johnny?





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Re: The new Rottefella XPLORE OFFTRACK Binding System Review

Post by Woodserson » Sun May 02, 2021 3:55 pm

lowangle al wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 11:57 am
Woodserson wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:22 am
A plastic boot in this system would need an outrageously stiff flexor to overcome the leverage that a plastic boot is going to generate.

I don't see this as being a T4 replacement, that's not going to happen. (unless they add cables :twisted: )

The lateral twisting demonstrated in the video that Shenanagains posted is still concerning to me. Without rails.... welp it'll be interesting.
This system wouldn't replace my T4s which I can use with my widest skis(112 uf). But surely there can be something that that skis tighter than a 3 pin or even a cable binding with leather boots on a ski around 70 or 80 underfoot.

As far as cables go, why would you need them if you have stiff flexors Johnny?
I agree with you. I hope this system might be that. We will see.

As far as plastic boots, the flexor is to keep the boot from rising up to help bending at the BoF right? So a leather boot with a hard red or white flexor can kind of do this. The boot is flexible and bends easy. But the flexor is at the wrong end of the lever so it needs to be super stout to overcome the boot motion. A plastic boots, less flexi than the leather will really need a hard stop up front.

I threw in the cable comment to rile things up. But resistance to the heel is more mechanically advantaged. Or the duckbutt (again shorter leverage and super stiff springs to do the job)





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riel
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Re: The new Rottefella XPLORE OFFTRACK Binding System Review

Post by riel » Mon May 03, 2021 10:50 am

lowangle al wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 11:57 am
This system wouldn't replace my T4s which I can use with my widest skis(112 uf). But surely there can be something that that skis tighter than a 3 pin or even a cable binding with leather boots on a ski around 70 or 80 underfoot.

As far as cables go, why would you need them if you have stiff flexors Johnny?
Cables are not necessarily about play between the boot and the binding, but about play inside the boot itself.

If you try to use your whole foot to steer a ski, but the boot flexes a bunch, it's hard to tell what will actually happen. Cables can compensate somewhat for the flex inside your boot, and allow you to drive your skis a little more with your ankles.

If these new boots make that unnecessary, that would be amazing.

If older model boots that simply have the sole swapped out from NNN-BC/75mm to XPlore make that unnecessary, that would be pretty hard to believe, since those boots didn't do that before on 75mm :)





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Re: The new Rottefella XPLORE OFFTRACK Binding System Review

Post by Johnny » Tue May 04, 2021 8:25 am

lilcliffy wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:11 pm
The Xplore is not intended to be a Telemark binding- not in the modern sense.
The XPlore is intended to be whatever you want it to be, according to the available options.

The XPlore IS a pure, downhill telemark binding. It is also a pure, classic XC binding. It is also a XC skating binding. It is also a pure, multipurpose backcountry binding. It is also a pure nordic skating binding. It is also a pure roller ski binding. It is also a pure snowshoe binding.

lilcliffy wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:27 pm
My 3pin boots may become a place for potted plants of various sorts...
Pictures pleeeeease! Who is going to come up with the most original idea here? :lol:

riel wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 10:50 am
Cables are not necessarily about play between the boot and the binding, but about play inside the boot itself.
Simply put, cables are about forcing your metatarsals to crush in an unnatural way, a lazy way for skiers to compensate for lack of technique and the best way to totally kill the blissful experience of pure cross-country downhill. 8-)

lilcliffy wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:32 pm
And to think I was rejected and told I was full of BS for suggesting that binding resistance contributed to downhill leverage...
1- Don't worry, half of the world rejects me, and the other half thinks I'm full of bullshit. 8-)

2- People call "bullshit" everything they are not able to understand, everything they don't have the mental ability to figure out. Calling "bullshit" everything they never gave a try, every new idea that they never thought about before. Staying comfortably in their ignorance zone because anyway, the mass itself thinks exactly like them so why bother. True knowledge is not important for these people, belonging to the herd and the American majority is all they care about. "Bullshit" is a word used to reveal one's own ignorance about a specific matter.
/...\ Peace, Love, Telemark and Tofu /...\
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lowangle al
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Re: The new Rottefella XPLORE OFFTRACK Binding System Review

Post by lowangle al » Tue May 04, 2021 10:48 am

Johnny wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 8:25 am
lilcliffy wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:11 pm
The Xplore is not intended to be a Telemark binding- not in the modern sense.
The XPlore is intended to be whatever you want it to be, according to the available options.

The XPlore IS a pure, downhill telemark binding. It is also a pure, classic XC binding. It is also a XC skating binding. It is also a pure, multipurpose backcountry binding. It is also a pure nordic skating binding. It is also a pure roller ski binding. It is also a pure snowshoe binding.

lilcliffy wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:27 pm
My 3pin boots may become a place for potted plants of various sorts...
Pictures pleeeeease! Who is going to come up with the most original idea here? :lol:

riel wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 10:50 am
Cables are not necessarily about play between the boot and the binding, but about play inside the boot itself.
Simply put, cables are about forcing your metatarsals to crush in an unnatural way, a lazy way for skiers to compensate for lack of technique and the best way to totally kill the blissful experience of pure cross-country downhill. 8-)

lilcliffy wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:32 pm
And to think I was rejected and told I was full of BS for suggesting that binding resistance contributed to downhill leverage...
1- Don't worry, half of the world rejects me, and the other half thinks I'm full of bullshit. 8-)

2- People call "bullshit" everything they are not able to understand, everything they don't have the mental ability to figure out. Calling "bullshit" everything they never gave a try, every new idea that they never thought about before. Staying comfortably in their ignorance zone because anyway, the mass itself thinks exactly like them so why bother. True knowledge is not important for these people, belonging to the herd and the American majority is all they care about. "Bullshit" is a word used to reveal one's own ignorance about a specific matter.
Cables for me are about the interface between my ski edges and the snow. My edges are working even before (and after) the ski is fully weighted keeping them in contact with the snow throughout the turn. This does make the uphill ski work a little better even when not properly weighted. This makes things more blissful, not less for me.

Johnny, if you're crushing your metatarsal you've got them too tight. Over 30 years without cables and 15 with them I don't find any more pleasure skiing without them, for touring or turning.





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lowangle al
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Re: The new Rottefella XPLORE OFFTRACK Binding System Review

Post by lowangle al » Tue May 04, 2021 5:03 pm

I assume you would get the same performance from a stiff flexor that I get from a cable. If you aren't using the stiff flexor to increase tip pressure, what are they doing for you?

If a cable crushed your metatarsal I would be in trouble because I have neuroma on the ball of both my feet.





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John_XCD
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Re: Wildly speculative talk about Asnes 21-22 lineup: Otto/FT62

Post by John_XCD » Sun May 09, 2021 11:45 am

An off topic reply---
Stephen wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 2:58 pm
So, since you posted that video again, I have to comment.

Top-of-mind for me was the impression that the skiers seemed to be heavy on the back ski and light on the front ski in the DH segments of the video.
The ski weighting was interesting to me.
Many of you have way more time on skies than I do.
As I was working on my DH skills last winter, It seemed there were times when “more weight on rear ski” really seemed to work. It allowed me to more easily use the lead ski as sort of a front rudder in the turn.
Once the turn was initiated, I could more evenly weight both skis.

In the video, it really seemed like the skier stayed weight back during the turn.
It seems like a conservative stance, since it allows some reserve balance, in case of unexpected deceleration.
Maybe I’m just making stuff up...
There are relatively few video examples of XCD technique out there. And maybe interesting to see if any differences with XPLORE (Johnny's review seems to suggest a change in technique). A few screenshots (which of course don't give the full context of motion).
1.png
This seems to show the ball of the foot off the trailing ski. AKA "riding the bumper" on NNNBC. Generally thought to be unstable on NNNBC because the rails are unengaged and unweighted-- but perhaps more powerful on XPLORE with more robust toe connection. And with a rigid bumper may still have significant force engaged on that ski? This looks more like "heavy telemark" technique to me vs NNNBC style XCD. But maybe this type of technique has some functionality on this system.
2.png
3.png
These are more reflective of the body position that you describe- and what I have found works quite well skiing soft snow on NNNBC. The trailing foot has ball of foot engaged on the ski and is heavily weighted-- maybe even primarily engaging the turn. The rear foot is sort of tucked in under the skiers body as opposed to extended behind. It's hard to get center of gravity really low while doing this (as opposed to above). I find this type of positioning in soft/deep snow give the best control and fore/aft balance. On skinny skis in soft snow, overweighting the front ski in my experience leads to tip dive -> loss of momentum -> more weight on the front ski -> more dip dive -> face plant. This video doesn't really snow short radius turns, but I really need to focus on intentionally weighting the "inside"/"trailing" foot when transitioning between turns (on NNNBC, soft snow).

Firmer snow is totally different where you can aggressively weight the front ski to initiate a turn.





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lilcliffy
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Favorite Skis: Asnes Ingstad BC; Asnes Gamme 54 BC; Asnes Storetind Carbon; Madshus Annum; Asnes Comabt Nato
Favorite boots: Alfa Guard Advance BC; Alpina Alaska BC; Crispi Svartisen BC; Scarpa T4
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Re: Wildly speculative talk about Asnes 21-22 lineup: Otto/FT62

Post by lilcliffy » Sun May 09, 2021 9:13 pm

John_XCD wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 11:45 am
This seems to show the ball of the foot off the trailing ski. AKA "riding the bumper" on NNNBC. Generally thought to be unstable on NNNBC because the rails are unengaged and unweighted-- but perhaps more powerful on XPLORE with more robust toe connection. And with a rigid bumper may still have significant force engaged on that ski?
You are onto something big here!
With the rigid boot-binding connection of the Xplore system- with a stiff enough flexor-
A raised heel is going to drive all kinds of power-transfer down into the ski.

The same thing can be achieved with NNNBC and a stiff flexor- but, as you mentioned the edge-to-edge stability of NNNBC comes from the boot being firmly in the binding rails.

I prefer the stiff flexor with NNNBC for downhill skiing- not because of edge-leverage- but because the stiff flexor drives force down into the ski- and if my balance happens to get thrown forwards (imagine that happening on backcountry snow and terrain), the stiffer flexor saves me from going "over-the-handle bars".

The rigid connection between the boot and binding is a massive step up from NNNBC/NN-3pin-
It also explains why the toe-section of the Xplore boot has to be so rock-rigid-
If the toe-section of an Xplore boot was not rock-solid-stiff, it would pop out of the binding clamp as soon as the boot sole bent.
This looks more like "heavy telemark" technique to me vs NNNBC style XCD. But maybe this type of technique has some functionality on this system.
It looks like NTN to me- and yes- one of the many advantages of the Xplore system is that you will still have control over the ski when the rear heel is raised high- even when the rear foot is not ideally weighted.

↑ This is a game changer IMO.
These are more reflective of the body position that you describe- and what I have found works quite well skiing soft snow on NNNBC. The trailing foot has ball of foot engaged on the ski and is heavily weighted-- maybe even primarily engaging the turn. The rear foot is sort of tucked in under the skiers body as opposed to extended behind.
Yes Sir John!
On skinny skis in soft snow, overweighting the front ski in my experience leads to tip dive -> loss of momentum -> more weight on the front ski -> more dip dive -> face plant.
Again- very best Master John.
This video doesn't really snow short radius turns, but I really need to focus on intentionally weighting the "inside"/"trailing" foot when transitioning between turns (on NNNBC, soft snow).
👍
Firmer snow is totally different where you can aggressively weight the front ski to initiate a turn.
👍
Cross-country AND down-hill skiing in the backcountry.
Unashamed to be a "cross-country type" and love skiing down-hill.





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