LilCliffy's Nordic Backcountry Touring Waxing

[CwmRaider]

I have been skiing since I could walk.

My father and mother met in Dublin in the mid-60s. My mother from Ireland- my father from Wales-they did not grow up skiing.

My mother is Irish- from Armagh.............

That’s no excuse…..no excuse at all!

A mere stone’s throw from Armagh:

When the Vikings first came to Ulster it was approaching winter time, so they sailed up the river Bann and set up winter quarters on the lough shore. Their ultimate aim was to sack Armagh, so they put the monks under observation. When the first snows came they noticed the monks sliding about the countryside on wooden planks, so they went and spoke to them about it. “We could use something like that back home in Norway, as we get a bit of snow there in winter.” The monks showed them how it worked, stressing how important it was to bend the tips up a bit. In due course, the Vikings struck their winter quarters and headed back to Norway (having sacked the hell out of Armagh first). They took with them some pairs of these Irish skis, a fine example of which can be seen to this day in the Norwegian Historical Museum at Frederiksgate 2 in Oslo.

That’s how skiing came to Norway and eventually spread from there throughout the whole world. Not many people know that.

Jurassien

Good story.
Yes, and ski wax was invented by the monks as well. They used the mixture of beeswax with pine tar as a sealant for beer kegs. One day, it had snowed a lot and the beer kegs were difficult to move, as the monks on skis were skidding hopelessly all over the place. One novice monk, Rexinius, had by misfortune spilled some of the beer keg sealant all over his skis. They wanted to carry him off for flagellation, but he it was a futile exercise as his skis had more friction than the others. Rexinius was nevertheless expelled from the monestary and the Vikings took him to Oslo. Later in life, as he aged, he became more fond of the flatter topography in Finland and emigrated there. His descendants started the commercial use of the Rex brand ski wax

[Jurassien]

Yes, and ski wax was invented by the monks as well. They used the mixture of beeswax with pine tar as a sealant for beer kegs.

Really?....I would never have guessed!

Clever buggers, those monks. Not only did they invent beer, whiskey and various other medicinal substances, but we now know that they invented skis as well…..and the wax that we put on them, without which this thread would not exist.

But we could all dump our skis (and this whole forum would not exist) if it hadn’t been for that English geezer who invented the laws of gravity after an apple fell on his head. Imagine skis which refused to slide down the hillside!

Jurassien

[wabene]

"Clever buggers, those monks. Not only did they invent beer, whiskey and various other medicinal substances, but we now know that they invented skis as well…..and the wax that we put on them, without which this thread would not exist."

The inhabitants of the Altai Mountains might have something to say about these claims. The Sami would chime in as well.

[CwmRaider]

The inhabitants of the Altai Mountains might have something to say about these claims. The Sami would chime in as well.

Don't forget the egyptians

Edit: perhaps it was not too obvious, but I like to make shit up sometimes.
And sorry for polluting this otherwise excellent thread.

[The GCW]

Just got some new Asnes Nansen skis. I wanted to get the Swix white polar wax ironed in, but instead the wax was heated on, using an infrared heating system. Rubbed on one generous layer, heated till warm, rubbed in then heated again till about / almost liquefied and then buffed in with cork.

I've been happy with the Gamme's in a 180 cm and feel certain a longer length would make it difficult for Me to achieve proper grip for propelling forward. If I remember correct, when I purchased them a thin card slid under the ski with weight on both skis. & Asnes recommends a 180cm.

The Nansen had a slight bit of room to place a thin card under the ski with both skis weighted and holding 4lb and 8lb weight to replicate My pack. & the card could slide forward and back in the wax pocket around 12-14" I think. The 190 cm barely allowed the card under the ski. (Asnes recommends a 180 or 185 cm ski.)

Is it best to not have the wax pocket, with grip wax, firmly on the snow with both skis weighted, for best glide? I think I got it right.

It's snowing lately and it won't be long.

[Stephen]

This video explains the concept very well.


At 2:37, where he says “brake” he means the wax would drag and “brake” forward motion.

As others have said previously, the test you are referencing is really meant for track skis, where a skilled skied is doing real kick and glide.
The idea is that the down force of the KICK presses the wax pocket onto the snow, locking into the snow so the skier can push back to generate foreword travel, without slipping. Once the forceful KICK is done, then with all the skier’s weight still on that one ski, the skier GLIDES for some distance until doing the same steps on the other foot. The wax pocket camber holds the waxed area of the ski off the snow, so it does not drag as the skier GLIDES.

These techniques do not generally apply to skiing in untracked snow, and so a main concern becomes not having a ski that is so stiff that it is difficult to press the wax pocket portion of the ski firmly into the snow to gain traction, especially when going uphill. Or one that is so soft that the wax tends to drag, making any opportunity to slide a disappointment.

[JohnSKepler]

I have been skiing since I could walk.

My father and mother met in Dublin in the mid-60s. My mother from Ireland- my father from Wales-they did not grow up skiing.

My mother is Irish- from Armagh- and has a ridiculous number of relatives in Boston/New England, New York City and California. In 1969, my parents flew from Shannon to Montreal- via Gander, NF- planning on a tour of North America- planning on visiting all of my mother's relatives.

(My parents had spent a few years touring all over western and southern Europe in their little Mini- expecting North America to be similar.)

When they landed in Gander, they thought- we are here!!! They were shocked that the flight from Gander to Montreal was longer than from Shannon to Gander!!!

The short version of the story is that my parents did the whirlwind tour- from Montreal, to Boston, to NYC, to southern California and back to Shannon.

BUT- they fell in love with Canada and Quebec. They immigrated to QC in 1970.

In 1970 they experienced their first real winter. They were completely infected by the Quebecois/Canadien love of winter and snow. My parents started touring the winter landscape on XC skis.

I came along in 1973- my sister in 1975- we XC skied in the Laurentians, the Eastern Townships, the Green Mountains, and the Adirondacks. My sister and I were indoctrinated.

So- WAX. Nordic grip wax.

Over the years, I have tested and experimented with many different approaches to waxing for Nordic touring.
My conclusion is that the current Nordic wax expertise and wisdom is obsessed with groomed track racing performance.

All of that is quite impractical and irrelevant when it comes to backcountry Nordic ski touring.

Here are my current conclusions as a starting point (and it happens to be very similar to what the locals told my parents in the early 1970s):

1. Avoid glide wax- PERIOD.
2. No matter how much I try to pretend- grip wax does not bond effectively to glide wax.
3. Softer kick wax bonds very effectively to a harder grip wax.
4. Base-binder- though clearly effective in performance racing context- seems a waste of time and money in the backcountry.
5. Using very hard grip wax as a base wax for the entire ski is the bomb for backcountry Nordic touring. It grips and glides when it is cold enough. It simply glides when the snow is warm. Softer kick wax binds to it effectively. It can be touched up in seconds with a can and a cork on the trail!
6. Using very hard grip wax as a base (e.g. Swix Polar) enables one to extend hard grip waxes onto much warmer snow than recommended for performance track skiing. For example: with Polar as a base, I can use Swix Blue as a kick wax in warm snow temperatures that would recommend Swix Red!!

My current system:
1. Iron in very hard grip wax into the entire base (e.g. Swix Polar).
2. Thoroughly buff in the base hard grip wax.
3. Cork and buff in a thin layer of kick wax for the day (e.g. Swix Green/Blue).
4. Use mohair kicker skins when the snow is temporarily hard to wax for (e.g. warm and wet; icy and refrozen).
5. Switch to very soft kick wax once true spring temperatures have come.

Gnardisk Mahgik!

@lilcliffy, you recently suggested I do this on my black sheet FT62 skis. I've been getting things ready and found that I have a question. Step 1, above says to iron in the hard grip wax. But, I don't think there's an iron temperature setting on the grip wax container. I actually have both the green and the blue as I got a Toko promotion starter-set that had green, blue, red, and yellow.

If I'm following you, I should crayon the green on the ski than iron it into the F62, since it is the hardest of the grip waxes, and go with just that when cold. If it warms up, I can put a higher temperature kick wax on top of that. And just don't use any glide wax at all. Ever?

[The GCW]

JohnSKepler,

It looks like Toko Green wax's temp range may be, 14° to 32°F.

If so, do not use Toko green for a base wax.

Most often Swix VO5 White Polar is recommended and it's temp range is -22° up to 5°F.

Base wax should be colder than the usual temperature a skier is likely to ski in so it almost always glides. With Toko green, at 15°-25° (a common temperature to ski in) skis will grip and not glide.

[lilcliffy]

Disclaimer-

In the case that I have confused anyone- or anyone has misinterpreted me in this thread (or anywhere else on this site for this matter)-

When I personally choose to use grip wax on my ski base- outside of the Classic track "kick zone" of a double-cambered ski-

I am not suggesting that I am "using grip wax as a glide wax"-

I am using grip wax instead of glide wax.

I happen to know and understand how both glide and grip wax work- and, I am not suggesting otherwise.

Grip wax is not glide wax.
(It does however offer more than acceptable glide in many contexts.)
..........
In my local backcountry ski touring environmental context- grip and kick waxes work better than any other combination of glide waxes, scales, and/or skins for grip, glide, trailbreaking and climbing. The downhill glide is likely/definitley a bit slower than appropriately selected glide wax- but, the overall ski performance is better- for moi- avoiding glide wax in my local backcountry ski touring.

I am not doing big-mountain backcountry ski touring in my local environmental context-
if I was, I would be selecting and prepping with an appropriate glide wax to the entire base- slapping on a climbing skin for the extended climb, and then ripping them off when I point em downhill (I do actually have much experience with this context- not locally appropriate)-

For my local backcountry ski touring context- grip and kick wax (avoiding glide wax) offers the best performance- in my limited experience.
YMMV
DGS
(Don't Go Screwing)

[lilcliffy]

To add, as a more general disclaimer-
I am not aware of anyone in my limited life- ever- claiming that grip wax is glide wax.
DGS
(Don't Go Screwing)