LilCliffy's Nordic Backcountry Touring Waxing

[lilcliffy]

@lilcliffy I would like to ask about a few technical details regarding Polar waxing.
I'm not sure about thickness of Polar layer. I rub the wax over the whole base, then pass it with hot iron, so there is no spots uncovered. After cooling I cork it. But it seems to me that my layer is quite thick - there are white marks during corking, and I leave visible fingerprints. So I make a few passes with nylon brush - is that OK?
The next issue is waxing scales. I followed your advice - rubbing, ironing, corking. But I see some wax remaining, especially behind transverse edges of scales. I also tried brushing, but I found that to remove these residues I had to brush both downwards and upwards - against the direction of pattern. Only after that I see thin shiny wax layer. What do you think?

Generally I do not concern myself with the thickness of grip wax- unless it is either too grippy (or if snow it clumping underfoot)-

I do not scrape my grip wax base unless the snow is VERY cold and I need/want better glide.

I generaly do very little to brush/buff grip wax once I have melted it over the scales.

Perhaps you are using more wax than I am?

I keep my grip waxes in the freezer when not in use- including the Polar I use for base layer- easier to apply precise thin and even layer of wax.

[tkarhu]

@tkarhu Very interesting ideas in regards to base klister. Perhaps you might give it a try and report back?

Now I tried that out. The liquid base klister makes a really thin layer. Overall it became 10-20 % klister in the bottom, and 80-90 % wax on top. I did just a short 10-15 km run, so I do not know about durability yet. But the tip was from a well-known hardcore touring guy, so I trust it works.

Points of base wax / klister are to 1) add durability and 2) prevent surface wax from "travelling" backwards to glide areas. After my run, there was some wax in the back glide area. I think it was purple wax, which I put between blue layers. I guess there would have been even more wax in the back without the base klister. Glide was still excellent after 10km, I had 40 km / h on a final groomed track downhill to a ski center. I would trust the base klister does not cause any long term issues because liquid stuff wears out fast, when as top layer.

On @lilciffy old question about durability. Some base klister in wax pocket high part would allow longer spans without rewaxing I think. Yet very hard wax might now spread easily on top of the klister. I spread some blue wax on top of the klister, which made a quite even surface with two layers of wax.

[fisheater]

@tkarhu Thank you for sharing some of the Nordic wisdom of Finland with us.

[lilcliffy]

I'm VERY much appreciating your experience and results on waxing! And yes, absolutely, your first observation that wax application info is from a racing point. As a former elite and coach, yeah, this is pretty much the main topic in that world. I'm also interested in what you think of your Combat Natos-how well they ski, handle, etc.

Hey man!
Sorry I missed this!
I love my Combat NATO ski. It is stable, supportive, smooth, reasonably efficient over distance and a trail-braking machine! It is also an absolute dream downhill- especially when you have room to ride wide open turns!

[CwmRaider]

I'm VERY much appreciating your experience and results on waxing! And yes, absolutely, your first observation that wax application info is from a racing point. As a former elite and coach, yeah, this is pretty much the main topic in that world. I'm also interested in what you think of your Combat Natos-how well they ski, handle, etc.

Hey man!
Sorry I missed this!
I love my Combat NATO ski. It is stable, supportive, smooth, reasonably efficient over distance and a trail-braking machine! It is also an absolute dream downhill- especially when you have room to ride wide open turns!

I concur.
I had a 24 km tour with the 210cm Combat Nato this weekend over 2 days, it was raining on Saturday. I polar waxed the tip and tail (just rubbed in and corked) for glide. I used 35mm mohair short skins for the trip. I took the NATO instead of the Otto Sverdrup because the snow was heavy and wet and re-freezing at night resulting in crusty snow. The NATO was very nice and stable, K&G performance was good. Glide was a bit poorer than my friend on E99 Crown on some sections of groomed trail, but I had noticeably better grip all the time, and glide difference was not noticeable off track. Very pleasant skis to use, also with a pretty heavy backpack.

[the Big Mao]

I'm VERY much appreciating your experience and results on waxing! And yes, absolutely, your first observation that wax application info is from a racing point. As a former elite and coach, yeah, this is pretty much the main topic in that world. I'm also interested in what you think of your Combat Natos-how well they ski, handle, etc.

Hey man!
Sorry I missed this!
I love my Combat NATO ski. It is stable, supportive, smooth, reasonably efficient over distance and a trail-braking machine! It is also an absolute dream downhill- especially when you have room to ride wide open turns!

NO worries! I'd love to have a pair, but I think-especially based on your wide open turn observations, that I'm gonna go for the Falketind 68 Explors next year, and hopefully Alpina/Rottefella will have those Explor bindings available at Neptune. We don't have anything open other than some little valleys. The central Cascades in WA are pretty steep and littered with nice trees for "stopping" not to mention some serious avalanche issues. We just lost some folks last week at Crystal Mountain.

[tkarhu]

@tkarhu Very interesting ideas in regards to base klister. Perhaps you might give it a try and report back?

Now I tried that out. The liquid base klister makes a really thin layer. Overall it became 10-20 % klister in the bottom, and 80-90 % wax on top. I did just a short 10-15 km run, so I do not know about durability yet. But the tip was from a well-known hardcore touring guy, so I trust it works.

Points of base wax / klister are to 1) add durability and 2) prevent surface wax from "travelling" backwards to glide areas. After my run, there was some wax in the back glide area. I think it was purple wax, which I put between blue layers. I guess there would have been even more wax in the back without the base klister. Glide was still excellent after 10km, I had 40 km / h on a final groomed track downhill to a ski center. I would trust the base klister does not cause any long term issues because liquid stuff wears out fast, when as top layer.

On @lilciffy old question about durability. Some base klister in wax pocket high part would allow longer spans without rewaxing I think. Yet very hard wax might now spread easily on top of the klister. I spread some blue wax on top of the klister, which made a quite even surface with two layers of wax.

Today I had an opportunity to do a longer day tour with the liquid base klister. We had -3’ C, newly fallen snow. I had four layers of blue special on top of the base klister. I skied mostly on tracks. After 35 km, I had still half length of kick wax left. In other words, I had wax still at base parts, where I had put four layers of wax. I think wax durability is good with the liquid base klister.

I skied with Atomic RC-10 track skis, which have 63 cm wax pocket in paper test. Durability might be less with BC stiffness skis, where kick area is more in contact with snow.

This was maybe not your typical BC daytrip, though I skied one kilometer in half leg high powder, and another at a local Olympic stadium. They happened to have a ski happening there, and groomed tracks in place of the 400 m track. After the sports arena, I half walked some kilometers home where pavement was sanded, and half skied 15-20 cm powder in park, cliff and recreational areas. RC-10 track skis do suprisingly well in 15-20 cm powder with 44 mm W.

[randoskier]

I have been skiing since I could walk.

My father and mother met in Dublin in the mid-60s. My mother from Ireland- my father from Wales-they did not grow up skiing.

My mother is Irish- from Armagh- and has a ridiculous number of relatives in Boston/New England, New York City and California. In 1969, my parents flew from Shannon to Montreal- via Gander, NF- planning on a tour of North America- planning on visiting all of my mother's relatives.

(My parents had spent a few years touring all over western and southern Europe in their little Mini- expecting North America to be similar.)

When they landed in Gander, they thought- we are here!!! They were shocked that the flight from Gander to Montreal was longer than from Shannon to Gander!!!

The short version of the story is that my parents did the whirlwind tour- from Montreal, to Boston, to NYC, to southern California and back to Shannon.

BUT- they fell in love with Canada and Quebec. They immigrated to QC in 1970.

In 1970 they experienced their first real winter. They were completely infected by the Quebecois/Canadien love of winter and snow. My parents started touring the winter landscape on XC skis.

I came along in 1973- my sister in 1975- we XC skied in the Laurentians, the Eastern Townships, the Green Mountains, and the Adirondacks. My sister and I were indoctrinated.

So- WAX. Nordic grip wax.

Over the years, I have tested and experimented with many different approaches to waxing for Nordic touring.
My conclusion is that the current Nordic wax expertise and wisdom is obsessed with groomed track racing performance.

All of that is quite impractical and irrelevant when it comes to backcountry Nordic ski touring.

Here are my current conclusions as a starting point (and it happens to be very similar to what the locals told my parents in the early 1970s):

1. Avoid glide wax- PERIOD.
2. No matter how much I try to pretend- grip wax does not bond effectively to glide wax.
3. Softer kick wax bonds very effectively to a harder grip wax.
4. Base-binder- though clearly effective in performance racing context- seems a waste of time and money in the backcountry.
5. Using very hard grip wax as a base wax for the entire ski is the bomb for backcountry Nordic touring. It grips and glides when it is cold enough. It simply glides when the snow is warm. Softer kick wax binds to it effectively. It can be touched up in seconds with a can and a cork on the trail!
6. Using very hard grip wax as a base (e.g. Swix Polar) enables one to extend hard grip waxes onto much warmer snow than recommended for performance track skiing. For example: with Polar as a base, I can use Swix Blue as a kick wax in warm snow temperatures that would recommend Swix Red!!

My current system:
1. Iron in very hard grip wax into the entire base (e.g. Swix Polar).
2. Thoroughly buff in the base hard grip wax.
3. Cork and buff in a thin layer of kick wax for the day (e.g. Swix Green/Blue).
4. Use mohair kicker skins when the snow is temporarily hard to wax for (e.g. warm and wet; icy and refrozen).
5. Switch to very soft kick wax once true spring temperatures have come.

Gnardisk Mahgik!

So like me you are an Irish citizen also?

[tkarhu]

Below is some information from Lilcliffy about where he skis. He posted this in another thread. When I got back to it, I thought this is better found here.

My point is: if you ski in similar conditions as he does, his waxing instructions must be golden for you. For sure they work in many other contexts, too.

My local touring is VERY hilly, with lots of steep climbs- I need consistent grip- and waxless scales are RARELY effective for climbing on their own (the snow is too cold and/or icy).

We also get a LOT of continous snowfall- I am more often breaking trail than skiing in a broken out track.

Once the snow gets deep enough (which it finally is as of last weekend- phew- it is late!)- I am touring through the forest- skiing on not only hilly topography, but also highly variable microtopography (i.e. pits and mounds, hummocks, fallen trees, forest understory shrubs and trees).

When the snow is cold enough that the hard grip wax is an effective kick wax- I simply start removing some of it (i.e. scrape and polish) until I get the ideal balance of grip and glide. At very cold temps I am sure that there is almost no wax on a significant area of the shovel and tail.

For my local touring- I have zero interest in trying to manage a complex balance of glide and kick wax- and I am not about to strip glide wax every time the temp fluctuates in the winter (which is definitely becoming more common as a function of climate change).

So- yes- I would think that I can climb up steep slopes on long stiff touring skis at least partially because I am getting some grip from my grip-waxed base. [For context, I asked if he thinks long skis and full ski polar wax go together] I have regulary climbed up slopes on grip wax alone, while other skiers are having to put on skins. And these same skiers are not getting better grip-glide when XC skiing either.

To each their own! And to each their own skiing context and environment. I am focused on a waxing system that works for my local backcountry touring context- it will not be effective everywhere.

Further, see image below for monthly temperature and snowfall near his current profile location. You might be nerdy enough to be interested, if you have read this far.

[Jurassien]

I have been skiing since I could walk.

My father and mother met in Dublin in the mid-60s. My mother from Ireland- my father from Wales-they did not grow up skiing.

My mother is Irish- from Armagh.............

That’s no excuse…..no excuse at all!

A mere stone’s throw from Armagh:

When the Vikings first came to Ulster it was approaching winter time, so they sailed up the river Bann and set up winter quarters on the lough shore. Their ultimate aim was to sack Armagh, so they put the monks under observation. When the first snows came they noticed the monks sliding about the countryside on wooden planks, so they went and spoke to them about it. “We could use something like that back home in Norway, as we get a bit of snow there in winter.” The monks showed them how it worked, stressing how important it was to bend the tips up a bit. In due course, the Vikings struck their winter quarters and headed back to Norway (having sacked the hell out of Armagh first). They took with them some pairs of these Irish skis, a fine example of which can be seen to this day in the Norwegian Historical Museum at Frederiksgate 2 in Oslo.

That’s how skiing came to Norway and eventually spread from there throughout the whole world. Not many people know that.

Jurassien