-40°C in Finland

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Theme
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Re: -40°C in Finland

Post by Theme » Tue Jan 09, 2024 2:49 am

JB TELE wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2024 12:48 am
Theme wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2024 3:50 am
JB TELE wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2024 9:35 pm
I'm surprised you weren't hot tenting. Those are some rough temperatures, I can't even imagine.
There is basically no way to gather firewood, nor is it allowed in a national park or without the permission from landowners. You are not allowed to use firewood from maintained structures for hot tenting either. At these temperatures, it would not be that effective anyways. You could use cabins if you needed to.

We were well prepared for -40 ish tempetatures. There was a chance for -50. Lowest recorded was -44.3 in Enontekiö, Finland. Lowest it has been in the 2000s.
Small wood stoves can be fed with dead tree branches. They are quite practical. You don't need to bring a stove or fuel, you don't need as much clothing for hanging around camp, and you can dry out things a bit. For weight efficiency it works out.
But I don't know if my small titanium stove would do much at -40C.
I disagree. You extort a vast amount of energy digging through the snow looking for legal firewood. In most protected areas gathering firewood is not allowed. You are not allowed to use firewood from wilderness cabins' shed for hot tenting. It takes time and effort, which in long term is less efficient. You can barely make it above 0°C even if you have a large enough lightweight stove.

This also requires for things to go right to plan each time. Never ever going to happen over a period of days.

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Capercaillie
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Re: -40°C in Finland

Post by Capercaillie » Tue Jan 09, 2024 1:12 pm

Very nice. Almost 50 people is a huge group to be traveling with.
Theme wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2024 2:28 pm
I had on me the Alpina Pioneer Pro and Tech to try out.
What kind of sock system did you use with those boots, and did you use any kind of overboot or gaiter?
JB TELE wrote: Small wood stoves can be fed with dead tree branches. They are quite practical. You don't need to bring a stove or fuel, you don't need as much clothing for hanging around camp, and you can dry out things a bit. For weight efficiency it works out.
This is very dangerous advice. If you or someone in your party gets hypothermic, you might not be able to warm them up in time.

There are a lot of disadvantages to hot tents. Hot tents have to be floorless. They obviously don't work in tundra or above tree line. Even if you have enough firewood around, you need to spend a lot of time gathering and splitting it all, and then you need to wake up regularly throughout the night to put more wood in the stove.

Every time I talk to or hear about someone with a hot tent, inevitably they are either car camping or traveling very short distances in easy terrain.



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randoskier
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Re: -40°C in Finland

Post by randoskier » Thu Jan 11, 2024 10:07 am

That is F-ing cold. The coldest I have ever encountered in the Nordic countries is -38° C (with high winds and white-out) in the Narvik Mountains. Normally it would take us 6 hours to ski from a boat at the end of the Sorfjorden (Tysfjord) to the Roysvatn hytta (dnt cabin). It took three nights! We always carry a winter tent on long tours, the Narvik Mountains are very exposed and remote.

What a difference a year makes in Finland! Last March we skied from Ivalo, Finland (well north of where you were, 70°N) to Kirkenes Norway, up the Russian border. We had many days in a row where it did not freeze at all at night and one day it reached 10° C in mid afternoon. It was really hard, slow, and sloppy going with a pulk. Luckily, after about a week, we hit the well-beaten path of the big Finnsmark Loype dogsled race and it went ok after that and there are always Norwegian Army snowmobile tracks running north-south on the Pasvik river that forms the border with Russia, so we followed them.

Weather is better too cold than too warm.



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randoskier
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Re: -40°C in Finland

Post by randoskier » Thu Jan 11, 2024 10:36 am

Theme wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2024 2:28 pm


I also had a paris pulk on me, as my new backpack did not arrive yet. I really had to think how to add weight to my pulk, I have managed to get my winter baseweight down to 9 kg in the latest years. Ended up starting with about 23 kg total after all. Glad I threw in some extra clothing. A rope pull system was the best, there is always something wrong with the bars.
My wife and I have Paris Pulks also, we don't like them, they flip over too easy and they tend to plow into deep snow. (I remember you solved that by melting the bow upwards, but the sides cut into the snow as well)

We have gone back to the Jet Sled Jr. ($40), it can carry almost as large a load as the Paris. it almost never flips over. It is shorter and can even be put on our backs if need be. it is much more stable on sidehill traverses. They go up over deep snow and obstacles. A more effective pulk in my opinion and much easier to navigate the airlines with (important to us).

I use fiberglass traces (bars) crossed in an X and have never had a problem with them. These can be made DIY out of fiberglass fence posts that cost $7 each and we put rod-end ball joints on them. They are attached to the sled with pins. You can also buy them complete with the attachment points from skipulk.com for $145 including the attachment channels and pins. Costs about $35 bucks to make a set DIY. I don't like the cable system that Acapulka uses, bad design, not big on Fjellpulken's either- it has too much slack where it buckles to the hip-belt (you don't want any). I don't see any advantage to fiberglass over a tough plastic like HDPE.

Great pics! Hyvää uutta vuotta!
p44.jpg
p1.jpg
h66.jpg
d1s.jpg



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Crayefish
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Re: -40°C in Finland

Post by Crayefish » Sat Jan 13, 2024 4:42 pm

Theme wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2024 12:36 pm

We had sleeping bags or sleeping bag combos which work down to about -40°. The down will collapse a bit each day, frost buildup is strong in such low temperatures, meaning insulation is lost each day. Most used double bags, thick synthetic on top and down inside. Hoping the dew point remains mostly inside the synthetic bag. I personally use a -35 down bag and sleep in two layers. I think I lose about a degree per day centigrade. When it collapses enough, I add my down jacket as an extra duvet. Double sleeping pads, cell foam on top, ensures staying warm from underneath. R-value 7 or higher is required. The ccf pad, even a very thin one, will feel warmer than just higher R-value air mattress. The cell pad heats quick when you toss and turn to a cold spot on the mattress.
Why don't you use a VBL in the sleeping bags? First Arctic trip I did, my -45 rated bag collapsed due to moisture (bad management on my part) on the night that the mercury hit -40 C. It was beyond unpleasant and borderline dangerous. I since learned about VBL bags and use one now... life changing! I'm a very hot/sweaty person though, so moisture management is always my biggest challenge.

My last trip to Sarek though, even after 2 weeks my bag started to lose a bit of loft due to the frost from the tent landing on the bag and working it's way in. This time I'll be using the VBL inside and a lightweight 2p bivi bag outside (because a 1p is too tight for my ME Redline bag). Hopefully that will mean that for 3 weeks this Feb my bag will stay 100% moisture free.



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Inspiredcapers
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Re: -40°C in Finland

Post by Inspiredcapers » Sat Jan 13, 2024 4:48 pm

What agency are you working for/with as an instructor? Is there a website we can access?



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tkarhu
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Re: -40°C in Finland

Post by tkarhu » Sat Jan 20, 2024 1:41 am

Crayefish wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2024 4:42 pm
First Arctic trip I did, my -45 rated bag collapsed due to moisture (bad management on my part) on the night that the mercury hit -40 C. It was beyond unpleasant and borderline dangerous. I since learned about VBL bags and use one now... life changing! I'm a very hot/sweaty person though, so moisture management is always my biggest challenge.

My last trip to Sarek though, even after 2 weeks my bag started to lose a bit of loft due to the frost from the tent landing on the bag and working it's way in. This time I'll be using the VBL inside and a lightweight 2p bivi bag outside (because a 1p is too tight for my ME Redline bag). Hopefully that will mean that for 3 weeks this Feb my bag will stay 100% moisture free.
@Crayefish That sounds like great advice! Thanks. I also sweat a lot, and moisture has been a real issue.

Moisture has condensed at the feet pouch of my sleeping bag, when winter tenting. Especially, when we were sleeping in a Nallo, a lightweight and tiny winter tent. Now we have a Keron 4 GT, too, which has much more volume than the Nallo. Yet I still believe moisture may become an issue, when winter tenting without heating up with a multi-fuel.

@Theme Skiing 6 km/h offtrack and sleeping in a cold tent, I think I would face serious issues of the moisture handling. After any faster XC/offtrack skiing, I am so sweaty that I become cold even at room temperature. After skiing, I keep all my outdoor clothes on indoors, when I have dinner or lunch. I guess you may not sweat as much?

Concerning shirts and jackets, seemingly small things seem to make a difference. For example, I find my 260 g merino shirt too thick. It starts to get sweaty, and does no dry well, when wearing it. I have also a merino liner shirt that is 200 g and tightly woven. The thinner one dries OK, and the solid weave has been durable.

Came to think, maybe my winter jacket is also too thick for my skiing. By contrast, yesterday I skied with a Endura winter cycling jersey in slightly under -5' C. Then I had less of the sweating issues, even when wearing the thicker 260 g merino shirt. Lately, a Finnish guide called Korpijaakko recommended not wearing too much clothers, when it gets cold, in some news. That sounds like a good idea.

High-end synthetic liners would dry faster than the merinos, but smell has been an issue. An expensive synthetic shirt may become disposal, and survive only one multi-day tour :D

For people who sweat, may the lightweight and windproof synthetic upper layers, combined with the thinner merino underwear, be a good combo also on multiday tours? Maybe with a high-end synthetic liner shirt as midlayer, when necessary.



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Crayefish
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Re: -40°C in Finland

Post by Crayefish » Sun Jan 21, 2024 12:54 pm

tkarhu wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2024 1:41 am
Crayefish wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2024 4:42 pm
First Arctic trip I did, my -45 rated bag collapsed due to moisture (bad management on my part) on the night that the mercury hit -40 C. It was beyond unpleasant and borderline dangerous. I since learned about VBL bags and use one now... life changing! I'm a very hot/sweaty person though, so moisture management is always my biggest challenge.

My last trip to Sarek though, even after 2 weeks my bag started to lose a bit of loft due to the frost from the tent landing on the bag and working it's way in. This time I'll be using the VBL inside and a lightweight 2p bivi bag outside (because a 1p is too tight for my ME Redline bag). Hopefully that will mean that for 3 weeks this Feb my bag will stay 100% moisture free.
@Crayefish That sounds like great advice! Thanks. I also sweat a lot, and moisture has been a real issue.

Moisture has condensed at the feet pouch of my sleeping bag, when winter tenting. Especially, when we were sleeping in a Nallo, a lightweight and tiny winter tent. Now we have a Keron 4 GT, too, which has much more volume than the Nallo. Yet I still believe moisture may become an issue, when winter tenting without heating up with a multi-fuel.

@Theme Skiing 6 km/h offtrack and sleeping in a cold tent, I think I would face serious issues of the moisture handling. After any faster XC/offtrack skiing, I am so sweaty that I become cold even at room temperature. After skiing, I keep all my outdoor clothes on indoors, when I have dinner or lunch. I guess you may not sweat as much?

Concerning shirts and jackets, seemingly small things seem to make a difference. For example, I find my 260 g merino shirt too thick. It starts to get sweaty, and does no dry well, when wearing it. I have also a merino liner shirt that is 200 g and tightly woven. The thinner one dries OK, and the solid weave has been durable.

Came to think, maybe my winter jacket is also too thick for my skiing. By contrast, yesterday I skied with a Endura winter cycling jersey in slightly under -5' C. Then I had less of the sweating issues, even when wearing the thicker 260 g merino shirt. Lately, a Finnish guide called Korpijaakko recommended not wearing too much clothers, when it gets cold, in some news. That sounds like a good idea.

High-end synthetic liners would dry faster than the merinos, but smell has been an issue. An expensive synthetic shirt may become disposal, and survive only one multi-day tour :D

For people who sweat, may the lightweight and windproof synthetic upper layers, combined with the thinner merino underwear, be a good combo also on multiday tours? Maybe with a high-end synthetic liner shirt as midlayer, when necessary.
You suffer the same as me then. Sweat management is the number 1 challenge. I've come to the following conclusions over the years;
- VBLs are essential. Feet and sleeping bag liners. I've heard some folk even go for vbl clothing... worth investigating perhaps?
- For ski touring I use the lightest softshell available; a goretex type hardshell is just not suitable (even in high winds).
- I have to run cold... very cold. Even in -20 I will be in just base layers and my super light softshell. Only when ut gets below -20 when skiing do I add a fleece to my layering. I put on a synthetic jacket for snack stops. I only use down when at camp and have cooled down a bit.
- No leather on the gloves/mitts. It absorbs sweat and freezes solid. Gloves has been a huge challenge, but finally have a system.
- I use Brynje mesh base layers now, with 200 weight merino over the top. Good balance of smell and sweat management.
- When using the VBL liner, base layers can be effectively dried in the sleeping bag. I don't change base layers for sleeping... I need them to dry overnight. Only my socks I'll swap at night to prevent foot rot and cold feet.



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Re: -40°C in Finland

Post by aclyon » Wed Jan 31, 2024 1:05 pm

did my first cold camp this week, in south tahoe bc (between carson pass and big meadow), only about -7C but significantly colder than any thing i've ever slept in.

thanks for all the tips-- the snow shelter was especially effective. i was pretty surprised when i crawled in my tent and noticed how much warmer it was behind the shelter than out in the ambient cold.

managed a 53 sleep score according to garmin, which is not any worse than a typical night on the trail in summer with lighter gear.



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