Telemark Talk / Telemark Tips Forum

I just got back from a 5 day ski trip in Urho Kekkonen National Park, Finland. We travelled about 55 km with 6 guide candidates and two instructors including me. This was one of the coldest tours I've done, and definitely the coldest we have had on this course.

Most of the path we took had been traveled, but we did cut our own route sometimes. Sometimes the tracks of others led to not-so-pleasurable steep climbs and descents.

We had about 60-70cm soft snow, with carrying layers only up the open areas. 250 cm skis were barely enough, but I would have preferred 50 cm more. Light weight of the 250s made up for some of the deficit in efficiency. I had on me the Alpina Pioneer Pro and Tech to try out. In hindsight, I should have just gone with my Alfa Outback 2.0 as I was instructing a large group, and we only did about 2km/h average speed. My normal pace is three times that in deep snow.

I also had a paris pulk on me, as my new backpack did not arrive yet. I really had to think how to add weight to my pulk, I have managed to get my winter baseweight down to 9 kg in the latest years. Ended up starting with about 23 kg total after all. Glad I threw in some extra clothing. A rope pull system was the best, there is always something wrong with the bars.

Had some condensation issues with our multifuel stoves, so we ended up visiting a few wilderness cabins along the way to heat up water.

Some people reported measuring down to -43°C, but the lowest my Kestrel gave me was -37°C. We did end up making snow shelters too. Saw the end of the polar night also.

Nice write-up!

I'm surprised you weren't hot tenting. Those are some rough temperatures, I can't even imagine.

JB TELE wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 05, 2024 9:35 pm

I'm surprised you weren't hot tenting. Those are some rough temperatures, I can't even imagine.

There is basically no way to gather firewood, nor is it allowed in a national park or without the permission from landowners. You are not allowed to use firewood from maintained structures for hot tenting either. At these temperatures, it would not be that effective anyways. You could use cabins if you needed to.

We were well prepared for -40 ish tempetatures. There was a chance for -50. Lowest recorded was -44.3 in Enontekiö, Finland. Lowest it has been in the 2000s.

@Theme Nice work! Did you heat up your tents with the multifuel stoves?

tkarhu wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 06, 2024 4:09 am

@Theme Nice work! Did you heat up your tents with the multifuel stoves?

No, we did not. We did not have time to teach this properly to 40 people, and the risk of trouble in such a crowd is quite high as we had varying degrees of winter hiking proficiency in the groups.

IMO everybody should first learn how to deal with the conditions without extra heat sources

Theme wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 06, 2024 4:32 am

tkarhu wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 06, 2024 4:09 am

@Theme Nice work! Did you heat up your tents with the multifuel stoves?

No, we did not. We did not have time to teach this properly to 40 people, and the risk of trouble in such a crowd is quite high as we had varying degrees of winter hiking proficiency in the groups.

IMO everybody should first learn how to deal with the conditions without extra heat sources

ok, i'll bite. this californian wants to know how you do it. what kind of gear and camping techniques do you use to stay warm in -40C?? i can't even imagine being outside in that kind of cold. i certainly can't imagine having my face exposed, i'd need a head sock or somesuch. and wow, a 40 person group going pretty slowly-- this sounds like a recipe for freezing to death!

aclyon wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 07, 2024 12:00 pm

ok, i'll bite. this californian wants to know how you do it. what kind of gear and camping techniques do you use to stay warm in -40C?? i can't even imagine being outside in that kind of cold. i certainly can't imagine having my face exposed, i'd need a head sock or somesuch. and wow, a 40 person group going pretty slowly-- this sounds like a recipe for freezing to death!

Clothing wise, need to have layers in order. Prefer anything quick drying with high warmth-to-weight ratio. Think we used 3-4 layers each, and some, especially women used insulated skirts or shorts as well. A group moves slow, making it colder for those that would naturally ski faster.

Ski boots have to be well-insulated. Heat comes from movement and getting your heart rate up. We use VBL socks to block sweat from wetting/freezing our boots.

We did tape our faces or use masks some of the time when it was windy.

For taking breaks, one would want thick down jackets and skirts/pants. We had the luxury of food thermos jars with a ready-made warm lunch inside. Morale boost like nothing else. Also liquids in thermoses for coffee, juice etc. Need to stay well-hydrated and consume enough calories for the body to help in keeping warm. I keep my water bottles warm under my clothing. It is slow to drink hot liquids, lukewarm is best. Need to use electrolytes as most water comes from melted snow.

We had sleeping bags or sleeping bag combos which work down to about -40°. The down will collapse a bit each day, frost buildup is strong in such low temperatures, meaning insulation is lost each day. Most used double bags, thick synthetic on top and down inside. Hoping the dew point remains mostly inside the synthetic bag. I personally use a -35 down bag and sleep in two layers. I think I lose about a degree per day centigrade. When it collapses enough, I add my down jacket as an extra duvet. Double sleeping pads, cell foam on top, ensures staying warm from underneath. R-value 7 or higher is required. The ccf pad, even a very thin one, will feel warmer than just higher R-value air mattress. The cell pad heats quick when you toss and turn to a cold spot on the mattress.

When it gets really cold, or the bags do not insulate enough anymore, one can build snow shelters to boost warmth. Easiest to dig a hole in which your setup fits, lay skis and poles on top and use a tarp/tent cloth to make a roof, insulated with snow. You get 10-20 degrees warmer sleep this way and it takes 30 min to make a shelter.

Typically we just use winter tents, usually tunnels, strong domes or pyramids with solid innernets. These give you a few degrees warmer sleep. More people, more warmth. Locate under a tree and be protected from radiation heat loss.

You need to be careful not to accumulate too much frost everywhere, scrub it off where you can

really informative, thank you. a lot of stuff follows my same general hiking ethos. but-- great idea, the hot thermos. and the snow shelter. and yes, i wondered about the loss of insulation from down materials. didn't think of being under a tree.

very cool. hoping to do some cold camping here in tahoe this year, where the temperatures are much more forgiving.

Theme wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 07, 2024 12:36 pm

Clothing wise, need to have layers in order. Prefer anything quick drying with high warmth-to-weight ratio. Think we used 3-4 layers each, and some, especially women used insulated skirts or shorts as well. A group moves slow, making it colder for those that would naturally ski faster.

Ski boots have to be well-insulated. Heat comes from movement and getting your heart rate up. We use VBL socks to block sweat from wetting/freezing our boots.

We did tape our faces or use masks some of the time when it was windy.

For taking breaks, one would want thick down jackets and skirts/pants. We had the luxury of food thermos jars with a ready-made warm lunch inside. Morale boost like nothing else. Also liquids in thermoses for coffee, juice etc. Need to stay well-hydrated and consume enough calories for the body to help in keeping warm. I keep my water bottles warm under my clothing. It is slow to drink hot liquids, lukewarm is best. Need to use electrolytes as most water comes from melted snow.

We had sleeping bags or sleeping bag combos which work down to about -40°. The down will collapse a bit each day, frost buildup is strong in such low temperatures, meaning insulation is lost each day. Most used double bags, thick synthetic on top and down inside. Hoping the dew point remains mostly inside the synthetic bag. I personally use a -35 down bag and sleep in two layers. I think I lose about a degree per day centigrade. When it collapses enough, I add my down jacket as an extra duvet. Double sleeping pads, cell foam on top, ensures staying warm from underneath. R-value 7 or higher is required. The ccf pad, even a very thin one, will feel warmer than just higher R-value air mattress. The cell pad heats quick when you toss and turn to a cold spot on the mattress.

When it gets really cold, or the bags do not insulate enough anymore, one can build snow shelters to boost warmth. Easiest to dig a hole in which your setup fits, lay skis and poles on top and use a tarp/tent cloth to make a roof, insulated with snow. You get 10-20 degrees warmer sleep this way and it takes 30 min to make a shelter.

Typically we just use winter tents, usually tunnels, strong domes or pyramids with solid innernets. These give you a few degrees warmer sleep. More people, more warmth. Locate under a tree and be protected from radiation heat loss.

You need to be careful not to accumulate too much frost everywhere, scrub it off where you can

Theme wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 06, 2024 3:50 am

JB TELE wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 05, 2024 9:35 pm

I'm surprised you weren't hot tenting. Those are some rough temperatures, I can't even imagine.

There is basically no way to gather firewood, nor is it allowed in a national park or without the permission from landowners. You are not allowed to use firewood from maintained structures for hot tenting either. At these temperatures, it would not be that effective anyways. You could use cabins if you needed to.

We were well prepared for -40 ish tempetatures. There was a chance for -50. Lowest recorded was -44.3 in Enontekiö, Finland. Lowest it has been in the 2000s.

Small wood stoves can be fed with dead tree branches. They are quite practical. You don't need to bring a stove or fuel, you don't need as much clothing for hanging around camp, and you can dry out things a bit. For weight efficiency it works out.
But I don't know if my small titanium stove would do much at -40C.