Help Me Learn How to Turn...

[12gaugesage]

You have also this excellent step by step movie from Dickie Hill, "The Telemark Movie", for learning downhill turns on narrow skis.

Wow, that's a great resource, hadn't seen that one yet. They give some great shots of initiating the turn with stems and wedges. Really shows you how related all the techniques are.
Hopefully I can get out tomorrow and attack!

[12gaugesage]

All the above posts are excellent recommendations. 12gaugesage's suggested tactics are uncannily similar to what I would say.

These are about the best turns I can muster on a similar class of equipment (10th Mountain / Epoch, NNN BC, Alaska boots), on fairly ideal soft snow on an even firm base, on an open trail - with many years of tele-skiing experience:



I spent my first, probably 5 years, of eastern backcountry skiing, building my skills, one turn at a time. Literally, I would face myself downhill, stopped in a snowplow position and plan out between what trees I would make the next turn, and what type of turn I would use (snowplow, wedge, parallel, side-slip, telemark, kick turn), and where/how I would stop or try to link the next turn!

This class of gear offers its own kind of versatile fun, but it delivers virtually none of the turnability you would be used to from your alpine equipment. Lowangle al, above, is right on this.

Certainly, in your early days, individual exaggerated parallel turns, frantic jump turns, panicked snow-plows, do-or-die hockey stops and single survival deep-arcing-teles will be the order of the day. Actually, come to think of it, they will remain highly useful for the rest of your xcd career!

Looking swift and smooth lofi!

[phoenix]

First and foremost problem is the Fishers; as lowangle al and Woodserson have described. Ditch 'em as soon as is practical for you, and get a ski that's turn friendly (single camber, reasonable flex and sidecut, etc.). The Fischers will be a big impediment and frustration.
Your alpine background will be quite helpful, the problem I had learning solid tele's was I was always turning with the lead ski, and not weighting/turning the rear ski. Sort of an unlearning thing.
Also, trying to learn in the BC alone slows the process... get to a lift served resort and make hundreds of tele turns, till you feel it clicks.

[bauerb]

I was a nordic ski racer and traditional ski jumper and competed in Nordic Combined from around the age of 5yo. Free heel was normal to me. as kids, we would ride the chair lift at the little local ski area and tele turn down the mountain on our cross country racing skis, probably 205-210, with xc racing "boots", which had as much support as slippers( this was before skating started to become a Thing and boots got taller and stiffer). I bought my first Tele setup used: a pair of Karhu somethings length 210" with a pair of Asolo Extremes. didn't take long to figure out the skis were too long and the boots not stiff enough. so, hacksawed the cuffs off an old pair of Nordicas, and mounted the bindings to a pair of 190" kastle downhill skis. I was off and running. as for improving my technique: there we no internet, and all the books were oriented around back country skiing. I was trying to learn quick turns on groomed trails. one thing I did: I kept a notecard in my pocket of the things I needed to remember when carving turns on VT ice. I'd study that little notecard on the chair lift. a couple of years ago I found the notecard in a shoebox. pretty neat to find a 30yo notecard sort of yellowed and written in the chicken scratch of a high school kid.

one thing about the way I ski: i have a very low stance and usually wear knee pads under my ski pants. I'm all about quick feet, and after you smash your knees a few times, you appreciate the extra padding

I still have things to figure out:eg. I can gracefully survive a mogul field, but i can't jam through the bumps fast like I imagine in my head. I never learned proper bump skiing on alpine skis, so I have no reference point. its a work in progress

[ianjt]

Thanks for all the replies and help. I took the skis to Stanley this weekend and had a blast. The snow is light and cold up there right now; I could punch my poles down to bare earth with minimal effort. I float in 3 feet of that powder better than I ever could with snowshoes. I was very impressed. I also tried a few turns and fell on just about every one of them. I will continue to soak in all of this advice, but I also continue to wonder if a wider skis and 3 pin binding is a more appropriate choice for me...

[Lo-Fi]

...These are about the best turns I can muster on a similar class of equipment (10th Mountain / Epoch, NNN BC, Alaska boots), on fairly ideal soft snow on an even firm base, on an open trail...





...This class of gear offers its own kind of versatile fun, but it delivers virtually none of the turnability you would be used to from your alpine equipment...

Looking swift and smooth lofi!

Thanks! I was less trying to show off some kind of great skiing, but was more trying to suggest that even in favourable conditions these skis, boots and bindings aren't conducive to tight quick tele turns.

Especially in more challenging conditions, you sort of have to do everything right and then wait for the turn. Rush it and one typically falls over to the side, jack-knifes or face-plants.

Ianjt - Wider skis!

[ianjt]

I have been out a few more times since my weekend trip a week and a half ago. I cannot, for the life of me, initiate any sort of turn. I have to walk down ~ 20 degree slopes. It seems like a lot of folks say this might be due to the double camber of the Excursion 88s. In the product description, the 88s are billed as being XC BC capable with some ability to turn thrown in. I have seen a few folks on these forums agree with this statement. The 98s and 112s are also double camber, but they are billed as being downhill capable skis. Maybe I am misunderstanding something, or I am trying to go too far too quick. I want some ability to navigate terrain on the downhill. Here's what happens most often:

I try to parallel: the ski tail gets stuck in the snow. The weighted ski gets buried at the tail and I stumble over. I also can't get the edges to engage the snow.

I try to tele: I can manage excruciatingly broad and slow turns. Nothing that could get me down a 50' hill that would require dodging some trees.

I try to hockey stop: similar to parallel, but I can't get the edges to bite, so I slide sideways and fall over.

Am I over reaching with the capabilities of my skis due to the camber? Should they never leave flat ground? Or am I too new at this and expecting too much too soon?

I am very tempted to buy single camber skis and give them a go. Epochs?

[Tom M]

Find a bunny hill to get the feel of your skis. A 20 degree slope is not the place to learn the turn and build confidence. Your current setup (Excursion 88's, BC X-6) are suitable for off trail skiing in moderate terrain. It is not a hard driving downhill setup. It takes a lot of practice to figure out how to turn XC skis, and in some difficult snow conditions it can be impossible to make elegant turns. It can be especially hard for those whose skiing experience has been limited to alpine resort skiing, as the techniques are very different. Soft boots and a double camber ski requires finesse and balance. The best thing you could do is to pair up with someone in your area to help you out. Practice, Practice, Practice. If you want to move on to a more downhill oriented ski, give it a go, but my recommendation is to practice with your current setup until you can at least make a turn on a gentle slope.

[lowangle al]

Like Tom said keep it low angle and if you open up your stance to almost shoulder width you may not fall over as much. Your thumbs will thank you.

[jalp]

I have been out a few more times since my weekend trip a week and a half ago. I cannot, for the life of me, initiate any sort of turn.

First of all, I'm happy to see another fellow Idahoan here! I'll be honest, I'm probably not the one to offer much in the way of detailed technical advice on how to turn a pair of XC skis. There are far more experienced and skilled voices here that can do that.

I also can't offer an experienced opinion on your current setup. I have never been on a pair of Excursion 88's but they are highly regarded by many experienced skiers here.

I can however give a little insight into my own progression.

Until the last few winters, my XC skiing was very straight line with little more than wedge or shuffling stepped turns. I hadn't even considered that an effective telemark turn would be possible on XC skis. It was only when I stumbled upon this forum, as well as several blogs and videos, that my perspective changed completely. I will say that my previous years of kick and glide experience was vital to me getting to the point of learning to turn. Knowing the feeling of balance, xc striding, and being comfortable on skinny skis and soft boots was what I needed before I could begin to learn to turn well or consistently (still working on the well and consistent part). My years of alpine skiing have been of little assistance.

Realizing through the writings and videos of others that turns were indeed possible, I did exactly what you did. I pointed downhill on a 20 degree-ish slope. I also could not initiate a turn to save my life. I could get no more than a super large radius arc that did little to help me avoid trees and rocks. It was more than a little frustrating. Initially, I thought that better gear was the answer. Better gear is actually a good move but it's not the most important factor for me anymore. The skis that you have are way better than the ones that you don't have. I've had some great days on $10.00 ski swap skis. I've also had a few brutal ones on a pricey brand new setup.

It was only when I dialed things back a bit that turning began to make sense. Gentle slopes, reasonable expectations and working on “feel” rather than grand achievements made all the difference for me.

My first clean turn came as a complete surprise to me. It was a quick survival move of all things. My ski partner had wiped out right in front of me. We were descending a steep powder filled trail. I would normally have tried to throw myself into a wedge and hope to slow down but I didn't have the space for that. Instead I hop-stepped, edged and dropped low and was surprised to find that the E99's were set in a nice carving arc. Well, that's when the light came on, it changed everything. I spent the rest of the season trying to replicate that accidental turn with varying degrees of success.

This is not an easy thing to do, and it shouldn't be. Why would I want to do something difficult when there are easier alternatives? I guess it just feels better to me. Why do I paddle a whitewater canoe when rafting is actually easier? Same reason. Properly done, nothing else even compares.

Well, apologies for the lengthy manifesto. I really didn't write this to talk about myself, but rather in hopes that I have a valuable thought or two to share. Hang in there, read, think, fall asleep thinking about the turns you'll make and, oh yeah, ski often.