Help Me Learn How to Turn...

[Rodbelan]

Couple of things too:
—Be careful about that stiff front leg; it doesn't absorb terrain very well... your tibia shouldn't be perpendicular to the ski but making an angle at your ankle (your knee should be over the tip of the binding). It makes a big difference.
—Work on your balance; do not rely too much on your poles (you will figure the right momentum for pole plant later). Try to avoid spidering; it will give you «bad fold» (mauvais pli) for years...
—The telemark move isn't like ballet—you do not elongate the rear leg from a static position; you could walk then lower your hips in a tele stance, putting pressure on the ground with both legs in a continuous movement (hope you get it; hard for me to explain).
—You will need at first to lift the rear ski a bit before you come into the tele stance; try it. It helps in the beginning...
When someone is saying «Oh these skis are skiing well», do not listen... Some skis are of course easier to turn or better for k&g. But it is the skier that makes the ski turn. And sometimes, the condition make it almost impossible to tele on cambered skinny; try other strategies. Noting wrong with wedge, step turn, parallel, open turn, etc (cf Steve Barnett book).

[bauerb]

I'm not sure that my technique would pass too much scrutiny, but its a style I have developed over a few decades. on packed powder like in this vid, I am setting an edge, rotating up body to face the fall line, and kicking my trailing leg around to finish the turn, then unweighting to initiate the next turn. if it were steeper, I'd be weighted forward a bit more

I don't know how to embed video, but here is a link

[ianjt]

I had a few successful turns last weekend in deep, sorta wet powder. However, my BCX 6 boots were literally falling apart (after 4 weeks of ownership) so I had to replace them with Alpina Alaskas. I took the new boots out this week, but the snow was a crusty layer under a few inches of powder. The powder was great, but on the downhill, my skis would break the icey layer underneath and get sucked under, which eliminated any control I had. Then today, it was raining on top of all this after adding several more inches of powder, so the snow was really wet and heavy. I had absolutely no success turning in these conditions. In fact, I could point the skis down hill and the density of the snow would slow me down and jerk me around. I am curious as to the limitations of XCD skis in conditions such as these. Any input?

[lilcliffy]

I had a few successful turns last weekend in deep, sorta wet powder. However, my BCX 6 boots were literally falling apart (after 4 weeks of ownership) so I had to replace them with Alpina Alaskas.

What vintage are your BCX6 boots- and I assuming that they are Fischers? Please let us know how you make out with the Alaska- BC or 75m?

I took the new boots out this week, but the snow was a crusty layer under a few inches of powder. The powder was great, but on the downhill, my skis would break the icey layer underneath and get sucked under, which eliminated any control I had. Then today, it was raining on top of all this after adding several more inches of powder, so the snow was really wet and heavy. I had absolutely no success turning in these conditions. In fact, I could point the skis down hill and the density of the snow would slow me down and jerk me around. I am curious as to the limitations of XCD skis in conditions such as these. Any input?

Hmmm...
I am afraid I have gotten to the point where I am having trouble following your adventures!

Do you mind reminding me of what you are looking to do with the Fischer 88?
(As another reminder- what length 88 do you have and what is your weight in relation to Fischer's recommendations?)
Primarily XC skiing? Or downhill-focused?

If it is XC skiing-focused- what is the terrain like that you want to ski? What are your typical snow conditions?
If you are XC skiing in very hilly/steep terrain- there are much more manageable (and more fun) XC skis than the 88 in hilly/steep terrain.

If your focus is downhill skiing with XC boots-bindings then- again- there are much better downhill-oriented skis than the 88...

And- if I remember correctly- you are a skilled Alpine skier getting into BC-XC/XCD skiing for the first time (and when I ask this- I am again assuming that you want to tour in XC boots)?

First of all- one option is to switch entirely to a modern downhill-focused Telemark setup (i.e. downhill skis; Telemark boots and bindings). Even the lowest-cut and most flexible modern Telemark boots will give you WAAAAY more stability and leverage to DRIVE your skis than a BC-XC boot. (see Lo-Fi's videos on the recent "NNN-BC-wide ski" thread- if you can wade through it ) I use downhill skis, Telemark boots and bindings for a lot of my downhill-focused tours (I also use NNNBC and downhill-focused XCD skis when the conditions are good). Though I much prefer XC boots for my BC-XC/XCD touring- there is a lot of BC downhill skiing that I personally would not be able to enjoy without a full-on Telemark setup.

Secondly- my intuition is telling me that you are also suffering from perhaps misapplying technique and skilled muscle memory- that was developed on rigid Alpine equipment- to stiff, cambered XC skis and soft XC boots.

I know that "it is all skiing"- I get it- physics is physics- when it comes to how a ski turns...

But skiing downhill with soft XC boots is not the same thing as skiing downhill in rigid downhill boots.
And- skiing downhill with stiff cambered skis, is not the same thing as skiing downhill with a ski that is tuned to have flex and camber intended for making turns.

I love downhill skiing with soft XC boots- I don't expect them to perform like a Telemark boot.
I love touring in hilly/steep terrain with stiff cambered XC skis- I don't expect them to perform like a downhill ski.

While all time skiing helps us improve as a skier- in terms of strength and balance- learning to charge down steep terrain on challenging snow with modern Telemark equipment did not help me learn how to ski downhill with XC equipment. This is my own personal experience with this- for what it is worth...
I am suspicious that your primary challenge is your body and mind expecting to be able to do what you can do on an Alpine setup?
...................
I have worked as chainsaw instructor for over 20 years now- specializing in tree felling and limbing instruction. I have trained everyone from a 17-yr-old urbanite that has never even seen a chainsaw- to intelligent and highly-skilled loggers with over 30 years experience, skills, and habits. In all cases- much of the chainsaw technique I teach- the student has never seen before- the skilled veteran has the most difficult time learning a new way of cutting trees- both because of their established habits as well as being able to think about it differently...
.................
Woodserson- on our site- is another skier that comes to my mind as a good example of a highly-skilled Alpine skier that has become a highly-skilled downhill-Nordic skier. It think he has described the experience as requiring him to "re-wire his brain"! Woods might be able to help you more with this...
..............
Forgive me for blathering on here- perhaps it is not at all helpful- I hope it is!
Gareth

[ianjt]

I had a few successful turns last weekend in deep, sorta wet powder. However, my BCX 6 boots were literally falling apart (after 4 weeks of ownership) so I had to replace them with Alpina Alaskas.

What vintage are your BCX6 boots- and I assuming that they are Fischers? Please let us know how you make out with the Alaska- BC or 75m?

I took the new boots out this week, but the snow was a crusty layer under a few inches of powder. The powder was great, but on the downhill, my skis would break the icey layer underneath and get sucked under, which eliminated any control I had. Then today, it was raining on top of all this after adding several more inches of powder, so the snow was really wet and heavy. I had absolutely no success turning in these conditions. In fact, I could point the skis down hill and the density of the snow would slow me down and jerk me around. I am curious as to the limitations of XCD skis in conditions such as these. Any input?

Hmmm...
I am afraid I have gotten to the point where I am having trouble following your adventures!

Do you mind reminding me of what you are looking to do with the Fischer 88?
(As another reminder- what length 88 do you have and what is your weight in relation to Fischer's recommendations?)
Primarily XC skiing? Or downhill-focused?

If it is XC skiing-focused- what is the terrain like that you want to ski? What are your typical snow conditions?
If you are XC skiing in very hilly/steep terrain- there are much more manageable (and more fun) XC skis than the 88 in hilly/steep terrain.

If your focus is downhill skiing with XC boots-bindings then- again- there are much better downhill-oriented skis than the 88...

And- if I remember correctly- you are a skilled Alpine skier getting into BC-XC/XCD skiing for the first time (and when I ask this- I am again assuming that you want to tour in XC boots)?

First of all- one option is to switch entirely to a modern downhill-focused Telemark setup (i.e. downhill skis; Telemark boots and bindings). Even the lowest-cut and most flexible modern Telemark boots will give you WAAAAY more stability and leverage to DRIVE your skis than a BC-XC boot. (see Lo-Fi's videos on the recent "NNN-BC-wide ski" thread- if you can wade through it ) I use downhill skis, Telemark boots and bindings for a lot of my downhill-focused tours (I also use NNNBC and downhill-focused XCD skis when the conditions are good). Though I much prefer XC boots for my BC-XC/XCD touring- there is a lot of BC downhill skiing that I personally would not be able to enjoy without a full-on Telemark setup.

Secondly- my intuition is telling me that you are also suffering from perhaps misapplying technique and skilled muscle memory- that was developed on rigid Alpine equipment- to stiff, cambered XC skis and soft XC boots.

I know that "it is all skiing"- I get it- physics is physics- when it comes to how a ski turns...

But skiing downhill with soft XC boots is not the same thing as skiing downhill in rigid downhill boots.
And- skiing downhill with stiff cambered skis, is not the same thing as skiing downhill with a ski that is tuned to have flex and camber intended for making turns.

I love downhill skiing with soft XC boots- I don't expect them to perform like a Telemark boot.
I love touring in hilly/steep terrain with stiff cambered XC skis- I don't expect them to perform like a downhill ski.

While all time skiing helps us improve as a skier- in terms of strength and balance- learning to charge down steep terrain on challenging snow with modern Telemark equipment did not help me learn how to ski downhill with XC equipment. This is my own personal experience with this- for what it is worth...
I am suspicious that your primary challenge is your body and mind expecting to be able to do what you can do on an Alpine setup?
...................
I have worked as chainsaw instructor for over 20 years now- specializing in tree felling and limbing instruction. I have trained everyone from a 17-yr-old urbanite that has never even seen a chainsaw- to intelligent and highly-skilled loggers with over 30 years experience, skills, and habits. In all cases- much of the chainsaw technique I teach- the student has never seen before- the skilled veteran has the most difficult time learning a new way of cutting trees- both because of their established habits as well as being able to think about it differently...
.................
Woodserson- on our site- is another skier that comes to my mind as a good example of a highly-skilled Alpine skier that has become a highly-skilled downhill-Nordic skier. It think has described the experience as requiring him to "re-wire his brain"! Woods might be able to help you more with this...
..............
Forgive me for blathering on here- perhaps it is not at all helpful- I hope it is!
Gareth

Maybe I was vague in my last post. I am not necessarily looking for a downhill ski. I suspect that I will purchase a new setup with that in mind, perhaps next season. But, while I am touring on ups and downs, I'd like to be able to throw some turns in. Kick and glide is not difficult for me. I am in excellent physical shape, so cardio isn't difficult for me. Climbing up the hills doesn't challenge me. The whole limiting factor, currently, is my ability (or lack thereof) to make a few turns down a 100' low-angle hill. Therefore, I have focused my outings on being able to get SOME turns in. This will allow me to tour more efficiently, and I think I will have more fun than simply falling down the hills.

With my BCX 6 boots, last weekend, I was able to start some rudimentary turns. The snow was wet and somewhat heavy, but not too bad. Here is a picture:


My BCX boots were 2019 models, and they were very poorly constructed. The synch chord for the snow skirt snapped after two outings, the zipper tab on the left boot snapper on the seventh outing. The right boot was significantly smaller than the left. They felt very poorly made. So I bought the Alpinas after returning from the trip in which I made the turns in the picture above. So far, they seem much better crafted.

The weather warmed up to nearly 50 degrees (f) at my local "backcountry" area and then dropped to negatives with the wind chill. I went out the next day and there was a few inches of powder from a storm that brought the cold weather. But the 50 degree weather melted lots of that previous snow and formed a layer of icey crust about 2 inches thick. I tried to work on some downhill turns (again, low angle, and only about 50' at a time) and my uphill ski (the knee bent lowest) would dig through the powder and under the icey layer. When this happened, I had absolutely no control. I fell a LOT. So I went out the next day. Same area. This time it had been raining on all of the powder from the day before. The snow was very wet and very heavy. Again, I had remarkable difficulty achieving anything remotely similar to the picture above. If the hill had a gentle slope, I wouldn't generate any momentum at all. Any hill sloped enough for me to generate momentum would attempting a turn or two to check my speed. But this time, the weight of the snow made it nearly impossible to control my skis.

So, my question: to what degree does crumby snow limit these types of skis? Would plastics and cables be easier to control in these conditions? Do my skis/boots only really work for turning light powder and packed snow? Both days I ascended hills with ease. But my return trip to my truck was brutal because I couldn't control my turns at all.

[spopepro]

Those snow conditions are difficult for anyone on any ski. Breakable crust is maybe only second to iced sun cups for "maybe I'll just not" backcountry conditions.

As someone who started coming here because I was on bc nordic skis and I wanted to learn to turn the advice here is all good and correct... but I couldn't put it together in practice until I got a pure downhill setup and plastic boots to learn how it all is supposed to feel. Maybe some can find it, but I couldn't. "Defeating" the camber to get the edge to turn requires serious commitment in both weight and speed which is really, really hard to do if you're lacking confidence. I found my confidence making lift-serviced laps on a soft ski with side cut. Now I can ski my mountain race 48 skis with nnn-bc alaskas down groomed beginner slopes and make (mostly) good turns. It's kind of like how it's always bothered me that we start kids on really crappy musical instruments--let's give them leaky, junky, hard to play instruments and then wonder why they find it hard and don't want to stick with it... Much better to learn in the best possible conditions, and make good habits, but obviously there's resource limitations to actually being able to do that.

So kind of a more direct answer to "is my setup not going to work in xxxx conditions" is that anything *can* work, but there's always a trade off for how much skill and effort it's going to take. And wet cement, breakable crust, eastern ice, and so on take a ton of skill and effort imho.

[Tom M]

Breakable crust is the kryptonite for most skiers. Survival skiing (skiing a low diagonal angle across the hill, stop, kick turn, repeat . . .) is what most would do. A few might be able to do some sort of jump turn, but I'm not one of them. The reason you can't turn in breakable crust is that the crust resists the turn, and it is very hard to do anything other than go in a straight line. Stiff plastic boots would help some, but if the crust is strong, the only solution is to get on top of the crust. That is hard to do with narrow skis and slow speed. You can turn in wet heavy snow (without crust) but it takes more effort and concentration than in normal or light snow. Don't beat yourself or your equipment up over this. When the conditions are bad and you want to ski, just change your objective and/or location. If the kick and glide is great, stick to trails where that is the most fun. If you want to work on turns when there is breakable crust in the backcountry, go to a ski area where they have groomed, ski the easy slopes, or call it a day. When the conditions improve, head back to the hills and keep working on your skills.

[ianjt]

Exactly the feedback I was looking for. Thank you!

[bauerb]

breakable crust? as anyone who has tried to waterski on a VT like in November will tell you, that 1/4" of thin ice that has formed in the mornings makes turns very difficult. you need to float the tips while trying not to drive down the trailing ski tails like an anchor. unless is is super steep and you are jumping both feet at the same time on snow, breakable crust is no fun...especially when you bury your tips and the sharp crust edges are gouging at your ankles.

[ianjt]

Just a picture update for those who have given me so much help. I have finally linked a few turns. We got nearly a foot of powder earlier in the week. I discovered that making turns in deep, dry powder was significantly more attainable and entertaining than anything else I have skied on. I am slowly building the confidence to explore as these skis were meant without worry of the downhill sections.