The end of Voile's 3p binding - RIP

[Raventele]

That was not a post about how to spend 95$ on a useless binding that won't fit your boots, nor how to weld it or do some more esoteric modifications to accommodate that brand new 95$ 2014 binding you just bought to your brand new 250$ 2014 boots.

I have several pairs of Super Telemarks, that was not the point either.

The point was simply: This is the end of an era. It's sad. Voile won't support STANDARD NORDIC NORM boots anymore. Johnny is sad. And that's it.

All of the 3p XC shoes from the last decades are all 15mm and below. Alpina are making GREAT boots in the good old XC tradition, and I totally love that old school 15mm duckbill. It's the way it should be. I can use any bindings with them, I can ski with any XC skis with 75mm bindings, no matter the brand. Even all those old 'Rat trap' kind of XC bindings. Only the new Voile bindings are problematic. And that is the sad thing.

Rottefella would never do this. They basically invented the rat trap binding. The name Rottefella itself means Rat Trap. They are a real XC company. So sad, I really liked Voile's stuff...

Don't need no stinkin cables....

^^^^^

1) ?? 15+ mm DOES fit; it's below that figure that does not for sure..And NO ONE is making such thin duckbills..are they ? Alpinas are 15+ from all the evidence we have..
2) Voile does not market their pins as an XC option..They market even their plain pin binding as a "Telemark Binding"..
3) If you want to ski "XC shoes" , get some old wire-bail XC binding ..Christ, I'll buy ya some and send them..
4) Bruce, maybe you don't need no stinkin cables but essentially what that says is YOU DO NEED GOOD SNOW..Otherwise, no cable means just flail and flop.. It's cold here and I have REALLY packed my backyard hill skating and XCD skiing around .. I took those Alpina 2175's out and they were just miserably inadequate for even controlling my Lite Terrains with 3pc on that ice and hard..Cursed them and put on the T4's..Nirvana!
5) For anyone planning to ski on anything other than very good conditions, STOP investing $$$ in shitty soft boots ( like the Alaska and the 2175 ) and get some 3PC! T4's! Excursions !! or some stiff , double-buckle leathers (good luck findin' there) and freakin' skis designed to turn!!

[MikeK]

1) ?? 15+ mm DOES fit; it's below that figure that does not for sure..And NO ONE is making such thin duckbills..are they ? Alpinas are 15+ from all the evidence we have..

Barely. It's not really clamping the boot very much in reality. Let's agree it could be problematic without the cables, which I can understand why Johnny doesn't want to use in the woods.

2) Voile does not market their pins as an XC option..They market even their plain pin binding as a "Telemark Binding"..

This is true. Neither are their skis.

3) If you want to ski "XC shoes" , get some old wire-bail XC binding ..Christ, I'll buy ya some and send them..

Again why would you use an inferior design (albeit more original) when the Super Telemark is a perfectly good option? Why do you seem to have such a personal vendetta against the ST when really it is just a beefed up version of the wire bail 'Rat Traps'?

4) Bruce, maybe you don't need no stinkin cables but essentially what that says is YOU DO NEED GOOD SNOW..Otherwise, no cable means just flail and flop.. It's cold here and I have REALLY packed my backyard hill skating and XCD skiing around .. I took those Alpina 2175's out and they were just miserably inadequate for even controlling my Lite Terrains with 3pc on that ice and hard..Cursed them and put on the T4's..Nirvana!

This is just your opinion. Plenty of people have and continue to ski without the cable, even on 'big' skis like the Vector and Charger.

5) For anyone planning to ski on anything other than very good conditions, STOP investing $$$ in shitty soft boots ( like the Alaska and the 2175 ) and get some 3PC! T4's! Excursions !! or some stiff , double-buckle leathers (good luck findin' there) and freakin' skis designed to turn!!

That doesn't sound like something a knight would say

Soft boots have all sorts of purposes. By this you assume, and thus make an ass of yourself, that everyone who buys these leather boots is using them solely for farming turns. Again you're in a bubble of consciousness that you need to break out of. If it doesn't work for you, fine, don't do it - but that doesn't mean it isn't applicable to someone else.

[Raventele]

1) could be problematic..I suppose.. Hard to get the 3rd click in any of my 3pHW's..Fixes seem ez enough -- goo or JB..

2) For what's going on (apparently) here, the old wire-bails would be fine..if $$$ is an issue AT ALL, again, wire-bail wins again..

3) Soft boots , very soft snow..Cambered skis, very soft snow.. Capice ?? You bring some ST's , a double cambered ski and some Alaskans to any resort when the snow is really packed and hard and I'll bring Lite Terrains, T4's and 3PC..We'll just do a blue groomer a few times.. I'll pay! Lookout pass!
I never said that ppl cannot ski without cables, I just said it's very limited for 99.9999% of skiers on hard snow..
I used to ski 10th Mountains with pins on the blacks , hard-snow days..Was is fun or elegant ? Nah, not really..

4) I never circumscribed the "purposes" of light boots (in fact I never said anything about NOT using leathers and I DID say a good stiff leather can go a long ways! WTF were you reading anyways? ) I only said that light boots are just a silly choice for hard snow..Big difference

[MikeK]

I'm just not sure why you wouldn't ski a lighter, skinnier ski on harder packed snow?

You can change your boots, or change your skis. Different sides of the same coin, are they not?

And of course what I meant about the soft leathers is that they are really touring boots. Where they thrive is skiing 20 miles with 500' of vertical no matter what the snow conditions.

I know what you mean about fatter, heavier skis in icy or rough snow with soft boots. It sucks. The skis buck all over. So then what is your objective? Skiing at a resort? Add bigger boots. Skiing in the wilderness? Add skinnier skis.

From what I can tell most days Johnny is skiing ice, he's using NTNs. If I wanted to ski ice just because I had to ski downhill, then I'd ski modern fixed heel parabolic alpine skis with a mid-70s waist, no questions asked. If you want to get into really the right gear for the job, why stop at the T4? If you want boot control and support, ski a pair of Nordica Dobermann 120's. You'll slice that ice.

If you just want to dicker around on greens and blues and get better at the telemark turn then why plastic? and that's all I want to do at a resort. The rest of the time It'll be natural snow in the woods, which is very rarely is boilerplate, and if it is, I can go ski something flatter.

[Raventele]

I'm just not sure why you wouldn't ski a lighter, skinnier ski on harder packed snow?

1)You can change your boots, or change your skis. Different sides of the same coin, are they not?


2)And of course what I meant about the soft leathers is that they are really touring boots. Where they thrive is skiing 20 miles with 500' of vertical no matter what the snow conditions.

I know what you mean about fatter, heavier skis in icy or rough snow with soft boots. It sucks. The skis buck all over. 3)So then what is your objective? Skiing at a resort? Add bigger boots. Skiing in the wilderness? Add skinnier skis.

From what I can tell most days Johnny is skiing ice, he's using NTNs. If I wanted to ski ice just for because I had to ski downhill, then I'd ski modern fixed heel parabolic alpine skis with a mid-70s waist, no questions asked. 4) If you want to get into really the right gear for the job, why stop at the T4? If you want boot control and support, ski a pair of Nordica Dobermann 120's. You'll slice that ice.

5)If you just want to dicker around on greens and blues and get better at the telemark turn then why plastic? and that's all I want to do at a resort. The rest of the time It'll be natural snow in the woods, which is very rarely is boilerplate, and if it is, I can go ski something flatter.

1) Of course not..Just different parts of a matrix ... You can ski an atomic Rainier on hard snow with most any boot change you like..It's still too stiff and too cambered to ever really handle any conditions other than good conditions with any speed or grace at all..
2) Nonsense, light leathers are going to suck on hard or icy conditions and with most skis of any size..
3) The objective, for me , is to has something with a broader range of applicability and stability under my feet if I am really going to be able to use it more than a couple times per/yr..
4) You seem to think ice and hard snow are only known to the ski areas ?
5) Endless flopping accelerates learning exactly how ?

[MikeK]

I think some of XCD is adapting to the conditions. You aren't doing that at a resort. You are skiing the same terrain in variable conditions.

Adapting means picking your terrain and skis based on the conditions. If its, hard, fast, difficult snow - get the skinnies out and stay off the hills. If it's beautiful powder - get the fatter skis out and find some hills.

The reason why people are constantly battling is they want to ski only one way or ski the same thing over and over. That's silly. Ski what mother nature gives you and adjust your route accordingly. If you like all types skiing, and not just going down steep slopes, then it becomes a lot easier. To me that is what XCD is about. And I think a lot of people miss that. XCD is about freedom. Freedom to ski trails, hills, mountains that are far from the roads or in your backyard.

Honestly Ron, I think it's silly to ski that stuff at a resort day after day. If it's for practice or fun, fine, but if the resort is your thing - it's not really XCD or BC Nordic or BC XC or what that gear was meant to do. You're asking more of it than it was meant for. It wasn't meant to be perfect in every resort condition.

[Raventele]

Who are these skiers of myth that only ski the BC ? --The KTB's being perhaps the closest match I can think of..
Personally, we get a great mix of all conditions and situations where we generally ski..
My fave being to wander off in the trees SC, steep or mellow..
I can get a pretty ez 15 -20k of vert with a nice beer break on about any lift-served outing I go on..
But on a typical "BC" slog people are lucky to get 3 or 4 k over the day's outing..
Honesty would serve, but don't expect it from all the great skinners out there!

[Raventele]

Today I will prob go waxless to a local sleddin' hill , Mike!
Do you think I can make parallel turns on my X or Lite Terrains!!
Is it possible I could Tele ??
Will the fishscales grab and make me tumble ???
Will the fishscale sound make me go insane ??!!!!
Why did you not tell me fishscales are slow , Mike?!!!
Why, why, oh why ????
BTW, any skiing is endless adaptation..Unless it's skiing in heaven, of course.

[MikeK]

Dude, you're still in a rut. All you can think about is going down hills. You'll never get it.

What does the word BC have to do with vert? The majority of the backcountry isn't going down hills. No one started Nordic skiing to 'shred the gnar'.

You're as silly as Freeheelwilly. You say flopping about as much as he does. You seem to think the only relevance in skiing is going down hills. You spend most of your time locked up at a resort. You're not free. You don't get it. You never will. I'm done.

And FWIW I haven't skied at a resort in two years. It's been the best two years of skiing I've ever done.

[Raventele]

^^ Have you skied AT ALL in the last 2 years ?
Like I say, all skiing is good to me..
I might even go to our wonderful Nordic trails on Mt Spokane this week!
Maybe do some skating..
And the term "BC" is most poorly defined term in the skier's lexicon..
XCD has been pretty limited in recent years around here because of the irregularity of the weather..
I love to ski between the Nordic trails on my XCD gear..is that "REAL" BC skiing, Mike ??
What about climbing closed lift-served for turns ? Not "BC" enough ?

What ? they call it BC skiing because it's XC skiing ? Please, no need to reinvent language..