epoch and annum speed

[tnevins530]

I'm new to the forum and the sport of xcd. I had some questions and this looked like the forum to get answers on the type of skiing I do. I've been skiing on Madshus voss' for the last 7 years and wanted something that could turn better. This year i have been using annums with hardwires and T4s. Love the turning (I'm no expert) but was wondering how much faster the Epoch would be on the flats. Anybody own/use both? Would the Annum be alot faster with a lighter boot? Thanks in advance. Loving the forum, alot of great info here.

[MikeK]

I have both the skis you ask about, but I don't have any direct touring comparison. Seen as how they have the same sidecut and only vary in width by 10mm, I wouldn't expect a huge difference.

Some might depend on your weight though too. If you are a light guy, the extra width of the Annum probably won't help, but if not, it might be welcome while breaking trail - wider skis will tend to actually get some glide untracked snow, where skinnier skis tend to just slice and drag.

I try to ski the skinniest ski I think I can get away with for the conditions, mainly because of weight. I honestly don't see a ton of touring difference in waxless skis. As long as the ski tracks straight and you can give a good kick without it side-slipping, you can get some glide on these type of skis.

When I keep track of my time on tours I've done multiple times, the biggest contributor seems to be the conditions and how hard I want to go. I find it almost as miserable to tour a wide ski on hardpack snow where it want's to sideslip and skate everywhere as I do touring a skinny ski in a foot of fresh powder, where it just refuses to glide.

[Raventele]

While most are really just going to use either ski to hunt up some turns, you might ask yourself: if I were going out to ski Nordic trails AND hunt turns , which ski ? No brainer..

[Johnny]

Welcome to your forum my friend!

I have both skis too and I see quite a big difference in the flats. The Epochs will definitely get you there faster then the Annums. The width difference is not big but you can really feel the difference when you kick and glide. Also, when you climb in deep powder, you have less snow to lift with the Epochs... : )

You would get more speed with lighter boots too. Just because your feet will be more responsive to the K&G movements. Not sure I express myself properly here but give it a try, you'll love it...!

I tend to pick the Annums when the snow is perfect. Fresh fluff. Or when the cover is thin and I need that extra bit of flotation. With colder snow, or snow that got packed with the winds, or when the descend is a bit more technical, I tend to pick the Epochs...

But yeah just like Mike, for the flats, I always go for the skinniest and the lightest...

[tnevins530]

Thanks guys.
I think a set of lighter boots will be in order soon for the longer days. I tour 10-15 miles when I go out and the T4s get heavy at the end of the day. Loving all the control when i get to the steep stuff though.
I'm sure eventually I will end up with a ski like the epoch also. It seems like a good idea to give all the skis a try

[MikeK]

Johnny is correct - there is something to be said about having a skinnier ski for long touring - he has a much bigger quiver to compare than I do.

For breaking trail, long tours and turnability I think you can't beat the Epoch or the S Bound 98 and a boot like the Svartisen 75mm. I can ski the Epoch with less boot but it's much harder. I'm loving the match - have done some long tours with it and put it down some hills. It turns the skis just great. You can ski those skis with less boot, but if the conditions aren't right i.e. nice powder, then it's tough.

Anyway we've been yammering on about them for sometime in the review section. I really love the S Bound. It turns so damn nice. It may be a bit harder to tour... that's maybe debatable. So far I haven't found a condition where I hate it.

http://www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=388

http://www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=381

Also you may not want to hear this, but if touring is your goal and you want to keep the plastic, you might want to trade the T4s for the Excursions. I've never used either but my wife has, and she love the Excursion, hates the T4. Both are bit heavy and rigid for kick and glide IMO - but the Excursion seems more flexible. She said the T4s felt like boat anchors and cramped her feet trying to kick and glide with them. Just some food for thought. Good luck!

[tnevins530]

I know what you are saying about the excursion being a little better for touring but the sales person said the t4 would turn better so I went for it.
I really wanted to experience a great turning package, which I bought the annum and the t4.
I guess I am starting to wonder if the lighter boot/ski would have been "enough" for what I do. I still use the madshus voss with a leather boot to cover ground fast. That setup usually results in a bail on the steep downhills though, at least on ice.
Its all good though, I could go out with 2x4s strapped to my boots and have fun. As long as I get out there.

[Raventele]

Having owned and used(a lot) both T4's and Excursions, I would say the difference in terms of turning power is ez to overstate..as is the difference in comfort..I like the the buckle system better on the T4's --it's to ez to knock a buckle loose on Excursions IMO and , well, that ain't so good..Yea, the Excursion seem a tad more comfortable..on the other hand, I would go ski my K2 Backups on a good snow day with the T4's , or even on harder snow, and not give it much thought..T4's are generally ok for skis with widths up to the mid-80's and you are pushing it in that case with Excursions..
Also there's less duckbill rocker with newer T4's than Excursions..

[MikeK]

Well you could always try some different package and reserve the Annum for the steepest and deepest stuff you ski.

Off the cuff - A Glittertind and the Alaska. I have these. Johnny has these. Everyone should have these. I don't ski anything too steep with these. Mostly long tours where the trail is broken out. My main complaint is the best snow to turn these in is the snow I don't like touring these in. Nice fat, slow powder is IMO the easiest to ski these down in. On the flats it's the worst. They are possibly a step up in turn-ability than the Voss - but in reality just their flex pattern and only in the right snow. At any rate I don't think you need much more boot to ski these.

Eon/S bound 78/88 with a Fischer BCX/Alaska/Svartisen. The Eon is a really popular ski for Adirondack touring. Unfortunately I don't have a pair. Some consider the perfect balance between turning and touring, some consider them worthless for either. I'd probably be in the former camp. The Alaska would be on the light end for them for a boot but probably totally skiable in most conditions. I think the reason they are considered a good Adirondack ski is most of our tours are in the 10 mile range and don't have anything too steep.

Next would be what I mentioned above. There you are getting out the range where the Alaska feels good. I'd just as soon ski this class and deal with a little less touring efficiency and have the good turning.

Now with what you have, I'm willing to bet you'd have a great tour with just a softer flexing leather boot. The Alaska can do it - it wouldn't be my choice though because the Annum is heavier than the Epochs or 98s. The BCX or the Svartisen would be more ideal. I'm pretty sure you could still crank down most hills, or at least survive and be able to kick and glide easier. Even the Excursion is going to feel restrictive compared to those boots - so if you plan on keeping the T4, a robust leather would be a better compliment (plus once you get some other skinnier skis you'll use it more).

[MikeK]

Yeah Ron - I get you on the buckles. The Excursion could really use a micro - adjust. The resolution is finer on the ratchet straps on the T4. I realized that when my wife got hers.