Crazy Lift ticket Prices!!!!

[mca80]

They probably want to encourage people to buy season passes by jacking up daily prices, while simultaneously knowing that tourists will pay high prices on vacation.

Bingo.

[joeatomictoad]

2. They are not low margin- Val Associates are rolling in the doe as are several other consolidators, if they ever appear to be low margin turn to the executive compensation and management salaries page.

First off. Good discussion; I appreciate a good back-and-forth.

Rolling in the dough and high margins are not directly proportional. For every $0.97 Vail spends, they may make $1.00, and that would be a 3% profit margin. (Of course, I don't know the real values.) My only point is that ski area operations is a tough line of work to make economically feasible (in general, not Vail specific).

I do agree that Vail executives are doing fine for themselves. Not necessarily living the rockstar life like pre-income tax era Rockefeller's and Vanderbilt's of the gilded age (tech & pharmaceuticals are close to this nowadays), but they're still plenty comfortable enough. IMHO, I couldn't care less about them, they're not my people. I am not teeing-off with any of them at the Ranch country club. However, I do respect they are adventurous to try to make $1.00 out of $0.97, because that is too extreme of a sport for me.

one word- PROFITEERING and GREED, sorry that is two but I am greedy.

Profiteering...
- "the act or activity of making an unreasonable profit on the sale of essential goods especially during times of emergency" - Webster dictionary.
- "Profiteering refers to taking advantage of unusual or exceptional circumstances to make excessive profits." - https://definitions.uslegal.com/p/profiteering/

- I don't see this one.

Greed...
Well, that's human nature. I totally agree with you on this one.

Monopoly...
Not yet. Frogs in the pot won't jump out if the heat is gradually increased. Vail is buying out competition, but there is still plenty left in the US. They probably have plenty of attorneys advising their strategists on every acquisition to ensure there are no suspicions of violating the Sherman Antitrust Act.

I am not anti-Vail for continuing to operate ski areas. However, I do not oblige with their substandard service delivery as of late. I vote with my wallet and choose to give my business to places that I perceive good value. Vail's pricing has always made the value suspect to me, but now the poor service has decreased the value even more.

[Stephen]

Geez, a lot of sound and fury about capitalists doing what capitalists are supposed to do.
The only guard rails are governmentally and legally imposed, and the whole idea is to see sparks fly as capitalists rub up against the limits. Let the lawyers handle that.

Off with their heads, we need a socialist revolution.
What’s that you say? I could just move to Europe?
Well, but I like my freedoms and the ability to do things that piss off my neighbors.
Wife, get me a beer…

[randoskier]

one word- PROFITEERING and GREED, sorry that is two but I am greedy.

Profiteering...
- "the act or activity of making an unreasonable profit on the sale of essential goods especially during times of emergency" - Webster dictionary.
- "Profiteering refers to taking advantage of unusual or exceptional circumstances to make excessive profits." - https://definitions.uslegal.com/p/profiteering/

- I don't see this one.

noun. /ˌprɒfɪˈtɪərɪŋ/ /ˌprɑːfɪˈtɪrɪŋ/ the act of making a lot of money in an unfair way, for example by asking very high prices for things that are hard to get.
Oxford Ditionary

Greed...
Well, that's human nature. I totally agree with you on this one.

I would argue that is American nature not human nature, I have found the majority of Scandinavians to be as concerned for the well being of their society as they are for their own well being. I find other Europeans like the French and Germans somewhere in the middle. The English, Dutch, and Italians I would put on the greedy side.

Monopoly...
Not yet. Frogs in the pot won't jump out if the heat is gradually increased. Vail is buying out competition, but there is still plenty left in the US. They probably have plenty of attorneys advising their strategists on every acquisition to ensure there are no suspicions of violating the Sherman Antitrust Act.

The enforcement of the existing anti-trust laws in the US has been pathetic for the past 35 years, it has failed the consumer, reduced employment, reduced selection, and made investment banks and Wall St law firms mega-wealthy from their M & A fees. - it is disaster for my industry- craft brewing- It is a disaster for the skiing industry- the ticket prices reflect that lack of competition, I suspect there is price-fixing between the large entities (like Vail) and the few competitors that still exist. I hope someone blows the whistle, but then they would never again work in the ski industry and they would lose their season pass so highly unlikely.


[/quote]

[randoskier]

2. They are not low margin- Val Associates are rolling in the doe as are several other consolidators, if they ever appear to be low margin turn to the executive compensation and management salaries page.

First off. Good discussion; I appreciate a good back-and-forth.

Rolling in the dough and high margins are not directly proportional. For every $0.97 Vail spends, they may make $1.00, and that would be a 3% profit margin. (Of course, I don't know the real values.) My only point is that ski area operations is a tough line of work to make economically feasible (in general, not Vail specific).

I do agree that Vail executives are doing fine for themselves. Not necessarily living the rockstar life like pre-income tax era Rockefeller's and Vanderbilt's of the gilded age (tech & pharmaceuticals are close to this nowadays), but they're still plenty comfortable enough. IMHO, I couldn't care less about them, they're not my people. I am not teeing-off with any of them at the Ranch country club. However, I do respect they are adventurous to try to make $1.00 out of $0.97, because that is too extreme of a sport for me.

The European Resorts are in no kind of financial crisis whatsoever and they charge half the price American resorts do. Their execs are not starving either. .

one word- PROFITEERING and GREED, sorry that is two but I am greedy.

Profiteering...
- "the act or activity of making an unreasonable profit on the sale of essential goods especially during times of emergency" - Webster dictionary.
- "Profiteering refers to taking advantage of unusual or exceptional circumstances to make excessive profits." - https://definitions.uslegal.com/p/profiteering/

- I don't see this one.

Greed...
Well, that's human nature. I totally agree with you on this one.

Monopoly...
Not yet. Frogs in the pot won't jump out if the heat is gradually increased. Vail is buying out competition, but there is still plenty left in the US. They probably have plenty of attorneys advising their strategists on every acquisition to ensure there are no suspicions of violating the Sherman Antitrust Act.

I am not anti-Vail for continuing to operate ski areas. However, I do not oblige with their substandard service delivery as of late. I vote with my wallet and choose to give my business to places that I perceive good value. Vail's pricing has always made the value suspect to me, but now the poor service has decreased the value even more.

[randoskier]

As the Chairman of the Board and Chief Executive Officer of Vail Resorts, the total annual compensation of Robert Katz at Vail Resorts is $2,789,900.

The estimated Net Worth of Robert A Katz is at least $172 Million dollars as of 13 December 2021. Mr. Katz owns over 233,354 units of Vail Resorts stock worth over $113,988,126 and over the last 18 years he sold MTN stock worth over $54,843,650. In addition, he makes $2,789,900 as Chairman of the Board and Chief Executive Officer at Vail Resorts.

Vail Associates EBITDA Margin in 2021 was 28.51% and that is after paying all sorts of ridiculous executive compensation and lining the pockets of the board and the senior managers.

Profiteering in action. Time for the USFS to negotiate a new lease with severe price caps on lift tickets- otherwise let this carpet bagger and his associates hit the road.

Lets compare that to Obergurgl-Hochgurgl in Austria which has a 4134 ft vertical (Vail is only 3500 ft) and the best lift system I have ever seen. One of my all time favorite lift-serviced mountains about 15 km up the Otztal valley from Solden. Plus Obergurgl is a cool name.

Re: Greed is human nature....

"Did you know that?
To date, the Lift Companies of Obergurgl and Hochgurgl have never distributed profit among their associates, all earnings are reinvested in improvements & modernizations of mountain lifts in the ski area."

https://www.gurgl.com/winter/ski-area/l ... pment.html

A lift ticket at Obergurgl costs- $68. at the desk, 20% less on-line, and there are many other deals to reduce the $68 price.

This is a superb ski area, one of our go-to places (about 3.5 hr. drive), my brother, his wife and 3 kids came over from Seattle and skied it with us the year before Covid they were shocked at the low cost of lodging and lift tickets, the enormous size of the mountain and the excellent ambiance, quality of the food, etc...- they usually ski at Whistler.

[randoskier]

Hey @randoskier , or any one else... have any experience with Andorra or others around the Pyrenees? Pricing good/bad? Terrain good/bad? Access good/bad? Etc?

The only thing I know about Pyrenees is that I bought my boots from telemark-pyrenees.com when they had a sale that was too good not to pass up... so in other words, I don't know that much about the area... but I appreciate good value when I see it.

I have some contact with Barcelona, and this doesn't look too far.

Baqueira -Beret is a big ski resort in Spain, my friends skied it a few years ago and said it was a blast- not sure if it snow sure. Check the weather in the Pyrenees- they have good snow years and bad. I have never been tempted to go to the Andorra resorts because the main one looks like a communist housing project.

I was supposed to ski here about four years ago-

https://www.bergfex.com/saintlary-soulan/

.....but there is only one a flight a week from Bergamo airport to Toulouse- the day of our travel the ground staff in the airport went on a one-day strike and our flight was cancelled- grrrrr thankfully the French guy we had rented a house from refunded us the money though he was not obligated to (the French understand strikes!). So I have not had the chance to ski there yet.

Saint Lary- Soulan is only 4 hrs drive from Barcelona, I would hit that one if you can.

I have walked in the Pyrenees but over on the Atlantic side not so far above Pamplona. The Pyrenees is an interesting mix of cultures depending where you are in the range- French, Basque, Spanish, Catalan. Great food form each of those. If you go you might want to read Mark Kurlansky's book about the Basques.

No it is not too expensive. A good site for ski resort reviews is the Ski Club of Great Britain, I like it anyway.

[Montana St Alum]

Rando - you should have been here last night.
My youngest son came by to burn some animal flesh from a hoofed ruminant mammal he had assassinated the other day. As he was eating, he and my wife (with no instigation on my part) got into a heated discussion on the state of the U.S. ski industry. You'd have fit in perfectly.

Your arguments bring to mind my neighbor.
She insists her husband is younger and hotter than me (yeah, probably) and that the easiest solution is to shit-can me.
So far, my #1 wife is unmoved and fortunately, being in Utah, most of my other wives seem quite content.

Anyway, I really enjoyed my trips to Switzerland, Austria and northern Italy and when COVID hysteria dies down, I hope to get back. My wife (the only one I have, actually) doesn't ski, so winter expeditions aren't on the table (I spent far too many days away from my bride and family during my working years), but summer outings to mountain bike with her will be. At least they will until the next emergency relegates us all to our basements for a few years!

But if I do get shit-canned, I'll stay in your basement, and you can give me the tour!
Lucky you.

[randoskier]

Rando - you should have been here last night.
My youngest son came by to burn some animal flesh from a hoofed ruminant mammal he had assassinated the other day. As he was eating, he and my wife (with no instigation on my part) got into a heated discussion on the state of the U.S. ski industry. You'd have fit in perfectly.

Your arguments bring to mind my neighbor.
She insists her husband is younger and hotter than me (yeah, probably) and that the easiest solution is to shit-can me.
So far, my #1 wife is unmoved and fortunately, being in Utah, most of my other wives seem quite content.

Anyway, I really enjoyed my trips to Switzerland, Austria and northern Italy and when COVID hysteria dies down, I hope to get back. My wife (the only one I have, actually) doesn't ski, so winter expeditions aren't on the table (I spent far too many days away from my bride and family during my working years), but summer outings to mountain bike with her will be. At least they will until the next emergency relegates us all to our basements for a few years!

But if I do get shit-canned, I'll stay in your basement, and you can give me the tour!
Lucky you.

You mean none of your wives ski? Jeeze what is Utah coming to?



PS Our old stone house is built on a slab.

[Montana St Alum]

[/quote]
PS Our old stone house is built on a slab.
[/quote]

Why does everyone tell me this when I invite myself over to their basement?