narrow double-cambered off-trail xcountry ski

[lilcliffy]

For my newest addition to my "quiver" I am looking for a traditional, narrow, double-cambered xcountry ski (waxable). The use is speed/glide-orientated, off-trail xcountry skiing, on gentle terrain- on dense and/or hard snow (I have wider skis for soft powder).

I keep getting drawn to the Madshus Glittertind (68mm shovel), Fischer E99 (66mm shovel), and perhaps the Rossi BC68 (68mm shovel).

However- I keep reminding myself- that for the intended use- I don't need the flotation of the above skis.

So- I also considering the Madshus Voss (60mm shovel), Fischer E89 (59mm shovel), and the Rossi BC59 (59mm shovel).

Anyone have any advice, thoughts or comments?

[MikeK]

Wow I had no idea about those Rossi models. We only seem to have the BC65 and BC70 in the states.

My guess based on Rossi experience:

Madshus will be the softest and slowest
E99 in the middle
Rossi the fastest

I'd say stick with the second batch though, seen as how you want speed. Trend should be the same. Weight should be comparable.

[tnevins530]

I use the voss. Unfortunately I cannot compare it to othe skis because it is the only "skinny" ski I have used. In my opinion it is fast. It is also 60 wide so it can fit in a groomed trail. Although I have been skiing this ski for seven years I have never been in a groomed track. It almost seems wrong to me to ski in a track that someone else prepared for me.

Is the voss available in waxable? I have the waxless.

[lilcliffy]

Thanks for the replys!

The Voss is available in a waxable base.

Although I will be using this as an off-trail/track ski- it's use will likely be restricted to gentle terrain; dense and/or hardpack snow. IME the performance advantages of double-camber and kick wax increase with a hard base.

This ski would be my backcountry-xcounytry cruising ski on hard snow. I live on a farm-woodlot with access to endless ungroomed trails and woods roads. During the work week, I often only have time for a daily 45min cruise around the property. (When there is fresh powder I use the Madshus Eon- or Annum when it is really deep).

I have tried the Voss- I agree it is fast- and as MikeK points out the tips and tails are relatively soft (this seems consistent with descriptions of Glittertind camber/flex). Of the 3 I am considering; the Voss is probably the best balanced off-trail ski.

I agree with you MikeK, the Fischer and the Rossi are likely faster (if less forgiving) due to their stiffer flex.

[MikeK]

Yes I agree on forgiveness as well. Depends on if you want to trade that off for a little glide. The softer skis seem to sit flat and hold better when you kick. A real aggressive stiff and cambered ski (like a true xc ski) will be bouncing all over if not constrained by a machine groomed hard track. Neither the Fischer or the Rossi will be that bad, but when I skied the Rossi's 65 and 70s I liked them better in a track.

[lilcliffy]

MikeK,

I have the same experience with the Rossi BC65 and BC70 (especially the BC70). They both have camber and stiffness that is close to a classic track-touring ski. That being said- if the base is very hard/dense, both of these skis should perform as a backcountry-xcountry ski (IMO you would need a very short length in order to effectively control either of these skis in a telemark turn). The biggest issue I have with both of these skis is that they are not available in a waxable base. When the snow conditions are just right for these skis- IME the "positrack" does not provide adequate grip. The last time I used either of these skis, on a hard base, I found myself wanting kicker skins. The Rossi BC59 and BC68 are available in a waxable base.

Your description of the off-trail performance of softer skis (e.g. Glittertind, Voss), on variable terrain, resonates with me.

In addition- IME very stiff-tipped, double-cambered skis cannot perform in deep/soft snow. During the kick phase, in soft snow; if the tips are very stiff, you simply end up driving the tips deeper into the snow- rather than compressing the wax/traction pocket. I have found very little kick/glide traction (waxable or waxless) with stiff, double-cambered skis- in soft snow.

The Voss, or Glittertind, seem the best true backcountry skis of the group. My thoughts are that the E89 or E99 (waxable) would be a better performing choice for exclusively skiing on dense/hard snow.

[MikeK]

My guess is you'd see similar (or better) performance with a wax base Voss or Glittertind as you would with waxless Rossi, in terms of glide. All the other aspects of the Madshus skis are better for BC touring IMO.

The BC70, being a compact ski, is meant to be skied short. I was cranking quite good with a 179cm and I could control it OK on hills. I was testing it at a Nordic center on trackless, flat groomed terrain (skate trails). I also skied it in a non-groomed (ski made) track. It's a fine ski for skiing at the local park for someone who can't ski, or doesn't want to ski a more traditional length.

In most cases I could ski the Glittertind longer. I was touring on some flat terrain this weekend and I remember why I don't. While most of my time was on 6-8' wide old truck/rail road bed through what is now wilderness, blowdown exists. When skirting off the wide, graded trail into less forgiving terrain and tight trees, a 200cm was all I think I could have tolerated. Most of the time I could have rocked a 215cm. It's all a compromise when you get off the beaten path.

[Teleman]

Good advise...Only skied the e99...for about 30 years???? Lots of different variations but for a cross country tough, out of the track that can be turned into a turning machine....I'd recommend it....Ron has some shots of Telekid doing things we all love to do....but on much bigger skis....Crossing small water courses....getting over logs....skiing through whip....they are beautiful....got some of my fastest long arcs this year on them and we have had good skiing all winter, so far....Even the crust was good!!!!...Glitters are liked by many but single camber....no...no....If it's for cruising get them longer....for cruising and turns a bit shorter....Like a 205-210....Need to re-wax them...Thanks for reminding me!!!! TM

[MikeK]

Glitts are double Tman. Almost identical to some E99s - Fischer has changed them recently to be a more focused touring ski (I believe). The older ones we have are the same profile and nearly the same camber. Glitts are thinner (not width-wise, thickness of the laminate) in the tip and the tail though which is what I believe adds to their lack of stiffness. Construction otherwise is probably pretty similar. I've found recently that the the MGV+ waxless pattern is a bit better than the Mountain Crown for grip. I like the new Fischer Offtrack Crown quite a bit. Seems comparable to the Omnitrack from Madshus.

[lilcliffy]

I concur- the Glittertind, to my understanding is double-cambered.

Yeah- the E89, E99, and E109 are now grouped in Fischer's "Backcountry" lineup- which is intended for backcountry-xcountry touring/trekking, and are all available in long classic touring lengths, with waxless, or waxable bases (all of these skis have double-camber). Fischer's S-Bound lineup is supposedly more "XCD", or xcountry-telemark orientated: soft, single-cambered, fatter, shorter lengths, more progressive sidecut, etc.

My recent test of the E89 vs the Voss suggests that (similar to MikeK's comparison of the Glittertind vs the E99) the Voss has softer tips/tails than the E89. IME the softer tips/tails makes the ski more "forgiving" on variable terrain (at least during kick and glide); and have better traction in soft snow. The E89 was faster, and had more kick/glide snap than the Voss, on a dense/hard base.